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COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 


HEARING 

BEFORE 


COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 


HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS 
First Session 

ON 


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H. R. 12653 

TO provide; for the use of public-school buildings 

INJTHE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA AS COMMUNITY . 
FORUMS, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES 


APRIL 12, 13, and 14, 1916 


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WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 











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COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

House of Representatives. 


SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS. 


BEN JOHNSON, Kentucky, Chairman. 


WYATT AIKEN, South Carolina. 

ROBERT CROSSER, Ohio. 

JAMES T. LLOYD, Missouri. 

JAMES A. HAMILL, New Jersey. 
CHARLES O. LOBECK, Nebraska. 
MICHAEL E. BURKE, Wisconsin. 

J. WILLARD RAGSDALE, South Carolina. 
CARL VINSON, Georgia. 

PETER J. DOOLING, New York. 

WARREN WORTH BAILEY, Pennsylvania. 


EMMETT WILSON, Florida. 

BENJAMIN C. HILLIARD, Colorado. 
WILLIAM J. CARY, Wisconsin. 

CARL E. MAPES, Michigan. 

BENJAMIN K. FOCHT, Pennsylvania. 

LOREN E. WHEELER, Illinois. 

GEORGE P. HARROW, Pennsylvania. 

P. DAVIS OAKEY, Connecticut. 

NORMAN J. GOULD, New York. 

GEORGE HOLDEN TINKHAM, Massachusetts. 


Sam W. Eskew, Clerk. 


D. Of D. 
JUN 13 1916 


2 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


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} 


Committee on the District of Columbia, 

House of Representatives, 

Washington, D. 0 ., April 12,1916. 

The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. Ben Johnson (chair¬ 
man) presiding. 

Mr. Johnson. The object of the meeting to-day is to grant a hear¬ 
ing upon House bill 12653. The committee will not be disposed to 
hear everybody who may wish to be heard, but will hear a liberal 
number upon each side of the question. The proponents of the 
measure will be heard first, in liberal number, as I said, and after 
that those who are opposed to the bill, or who have amendments to 
offer to it, will be heard. I wish to emphasize that everybody can 
not be heard, but that a reasonable number upon each side will be 
heard. 

Who is the spokesman upon this occasion for the proponents of 
the bill ? 

Mr. Edward J. Ward. Miss Margaret Woodrow Wilson, the chair¬ 
man of the committee of the Grover Cleveland Forum. 

Mr. Johnson. We will be very glad indeed to hear from you, Miss 
Wilson. 

STATEMENT OF MISS MARGARET WOODROW WILSON, CHAIRMAN 
OF THE COMMITTEE OF THE GROVER CLEVELAND FORUM. 

Miss AVilson. Mr. Johnson, may I give each member of the com¬ 
mittee a copy of the bill, with some little amendments upon which 
we have all agreed? 

Mr. Johnson. Certainly. 

Miss AVilson. I should like first, Mr. Chairman, to read the bill 
straight through. 

Mr. Johnson. Whatever is your pleasure. 

Miss AVilson (reading): 

A BILL To provide for the use of public-school buildings in the District of Columbia as 
community forums, and for other purposes. 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled , That upon the approval of this act the Board 
of Education of the District of Columbia is authorized and directed, and it 
shall be its duty, to designate ten public-school buildings in said District for 
use as community forums; and upon the expiration of one year thereafter the 
said board may from time to time, in its discretion, designate other and addi¬ 
tional public-school buildings for use as community forums. 

You notice we have substituted “ board of education ” in the place 
of u commissioners,” and we have done that all through the bill, be¬ 
cause there has been a slight misunderstanding of having the com¬ 
missioners, in the first place, designate the territorial limits within 

3 




4 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


which we must reside to become members of the community-center 
organizations. It does not matter to us who makes convenient the 
use of the school buildings for the people, just so that is done. We 
gave it to the commissioners in the first place, because the commis¬ 
sioners represent Congress in the administration of the government 
of the District of Columbia for the grown-up people, and the board 
of education represents Congress in its authority over the children; 
so we thought it very appropriate that the commissioners should out¬ 
line the districts for the territories in which the grown-up people 
must live to become members of the community-forum organization. 
But it is just a matter of machinery; it does not matter who does it; 
and so for the purpose of not making a false issue, an issue between 
the commissioners and the board of education (since there is none at 
all), we suggest that the board of education be given the authority 
to make convenient the use of the school buildings for the people. 

Mr. Johnson. Miss Wilson, I might perhaps give you a little in¬ 
formation—that the school board does not represent the children 
alone, for the reason that in the District of Columbia there is no 
maximum school age. 

Miss Wilson. I see. 

Mr. Johnson. We have a number of times found persons in the 
schools here nearing* 70 years of age. 

Miss Wilson. I see. Well, of course, it does not really matter who 
does it, just so the wishes of the people are carried out in connection 
with the free use of the school buildings; so that all through this bill 
we have substituted “ board of education ” for “ commissioners ” 
where the word “ commissioners ” appeared before. [Beading:] 

Sec. 2. That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Board of 
Education of the District of Columbia by not less than twenty adult persons 
residing within a radius of one-half mile of a public-school building designated 
by the said board for use as a community forum the said board shall define 
and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must reside to entitle 
them to membership and participation in an association of adult persons to 
use as a community forum a public-school building designated by the said 
board for that purpose. 

Sec. 3. That whenever application is made to the Board of Education of the 
District of Columbia as provided in section two of this act the said board shall 
direct the superintendent of public schools, or the principal of a school building 
designated by the said board for use as a community forum, and it shall be the 
duty of the said superintendent or principal, pursuant to such direction, to assist 
in the formation or organization of the association of adult persons for com¬ 
munity-forum purposes. The said superintendent or principal shall issue the call 
for the meeting for organizing such association and shall serve as organizing 
secretary until an association of adult members shall have been formed and 
organized. The board of education shall announce, through publication in one 
daily newspaper in the District of Columbia, the date and hour of the meeting 
for organization, which shall be not less than one week or more than two weeks 
following the receipt of the application provided for in this section and at the 
time requested in the application filed with the said board. 

Sec. 4. That at a meeting of adult persons called for the organization of an 
association for community forum purposes the said persons are authorized to 
elect necessary officers and to prescribe and adopt by-laws and regulations for 
the conduct of the meetings of the association. The by-laws and regulations 
as adopted shall show that the primary object of the association is the public 
education of the community through the open presentation and free discussion 
of public questions, and nothing contained in the by-laws and regulations shall 
limit the attendance or membership of persons at meetings of the association, 
except as provided in section two of this act. The by-laws and regulations 
shall authorize and provide for the principal of the school building designated 
as a community forum or a person to be nominated by the principal to serve 
as executive secretary of the association. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


5 


Sec. 5. Tliat when an organization of adult persons shall have been formed 
and by-laws and regulations adopted for the conduct of the meetings of the 
association as provided in the preceding section, it shall be the duty of the 
board of education to make all necessary arrangements and provision for the 
comfortable and convenient use of the school building for the weekly, biweekly, 
or monthly meetings of such association at such times as the association may 
designate for its meetings. Amendments to the by-laws and regulations not 
in conflict with the provisions of section four of this act may be made at any 
regular meeting of the said association. No public-school building shall be 
used under the provisions of this act during such hours as the building is in 
use for the instruction of pupils. 

Sec. 6. That whenever a public-school building shall have been designated 
and established as a community forum under the provisions of this act, and 
upon request made to the Board of Education of the District of Columbia so 
to do by the association of adult persons entitled to use the building for such 
purpose, the said board shall designate such building to be used also as a 
community center for the organized training and recreation of young people, 
including such activities as may be requested by the said association and ap¬ 
proved by the said board. The building shall be available for use as a com¬ 
munity center at such times as may be requested by the said association of 
adult persons. The herein provided for community center meetings and activi¬ 
ties shall be open and available in the discretion of the executive secretary 
for adult persons residing in the community. The said board shall not during 
the period of one year following the date of the approval of this act designate 
more than three public-school buildings for use as community centers, but 
thereafter the said board may from time to time, in their discretion, designate 
other and additional school buildings for such purpose. 

Sec. 7. That upon the designation of a public-school building for use as a com¬ 
munity center it shall be the duty of the board of education to make all ar¬ 
rangements for the comfortable and convenient use of the school building for 
such purpose. The executive secretary provided for in section four of this 
act shall serve in a like capacity in community center meetings and activities, 
and shall have direction over the use of the school building while so used. The 
said executive secretary shall be provided with two assistants, one male and 
one female, who shall under the said secretary be charged with organizing and 
directing the activities provided for in section six of this act. 

Sec. 8. That the executive secretary authorized by this act for each public- 
school building designated and used as a community forum or as a community 
forum and community center shall be entitled to compensation at the rate 
of $4 for each meeting of such community forum or community center, and the 
two assistants herein authorized for each building used as a community center 
shall receive for their services compensation at the rate of $2 each for each 
meeting: Provided , That compensation shall be paid only for services actually 
rendered at and in connection with meetings of community forums and com¬ 
munity centers. 

Sec. 9. That it shall be the duty of the board of education to provide out of 
appropriations of public funds authorized for the public schools of the District 
of Columbia light, heat, janitor service, and such other incidental expenses as 
may be necessary to enable the comfortable and convenient use of public-school 
buildings designated by the board of education of said District for use as com¬ 
munity forums and community centers, and hereafter the board of education 
shall include in its annual estimates of appropriations for the expenses of the 
public schools such sum or sums as may be required to provide for the pay¬ 
ment of compensation and expenses authorized by this act in connection with 
the use of public-school buildings as community forums and community centers. 
To provide until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and seventeen, for the pay¬ 
ment of expenses and compensations authorized by this act, including additional 
compensation for janitors, and for extra janitor service when necessary, there 
is hereby appropriated the sum of $15,000, one-lmlf out of any moneys in 
the Treasury not otherwise appropriated and one-half from the revenues of 
the District of Columbia. 

We are indebted to the janitors for another amendment here. They 
pointed out to us that it was better to include the appropriation in 
this act. I will read the amendment as we suggest it: 

To provide until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and seventeen, for the pay¬ 
ment of expenses and compensations authorized by the act, including additional 


6 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

compensation for janitors, and for extra janitor service when necessary, there 
is hereby appropriated the sum of $15,000, one-lialf out of any moneys in the 
Treasury not otherwise appropriated and one-half from the revenues of the 
District of Columbia. 

You see that is to provide for all these activities until such time 
as the board of education makes up its new budget. The janitors 
pointed out to us that this would be necessary, and we are very much 
indebted to them for pointing this out. 

Mr. Johnson. I will invite your attention there to the fact that 
this committee has no right to appropriate money. That must come 
from the Committee on Appropriations. With that in the bill it 
would be possible to raise a question of appropriation and take away 
from the House the consideration of the bill. 

Miss Wilson. And take away from the House the consideration 
of the bill? 

Mr. Johnson. With that provision in; yes. 

Miss Wilson. Then what would the committee think about that, 
Mr. Ward? 

Mr. Johnson. This committee should authorize, and then the Ap¬ 
propriations Committee could appropriate any money in the appro¬ 
priations bill. 

Miss Wilson . Then this committee would simply authorize in this ? 

Mr. Lloyd. We can amend that for you. 

Mr. Johnson. The committee can change that so as to make it an 
authorization instead of an appropriation. 

Miss Wilson. And then the appropriation would most likely be 
made, would it not? 

Mr. Johnson. Most certainly be made, I think. 

Miss Wilson. All right. I think, in considering this bill- 

Mr. Johnson. Before you leave that matter. The stenographer 
will print in the hearing the amended bill as it has just been read by 
Miss Wilson. 

Miss Wilson. Thank you. 

I believe in considering this bill we ought to keep in mind the 
whole country and the general purpose of the community-center 
movement, because this bill will most certainly be used, to a certain 
extent, as a model by State legislators; and so, in a way, you are 
really acting for a great movement and for the whole country if 
you report out this bill and Congress passes it. 

As you know, the general object of the social-center movement, or 
the community forum, as it is called now, is to bring about organization 
of the citizenship of this whole country in deliberative bodies, whose 
purpose shall be the promotion of the general welfare through com¬ 
mon counsel and common action. We believe that the only way to do 
this is after the fashion of the old town meetings. Of course our 
cities and our towns are now too large for each to constitute a town 
meeting, so we suggest that we divide them into groups and that we 
organize for discussion and cooperation within certain limits. And 
we suggest the organization within the limits within which we are 
already organized, except in the District of Columbia, for the pur¬ 
pose of voting; that is, within the limits of the voting pre^ncts; 
and of course in other parts of the country the school districts and 
the voting precincts are almost identical. And it is suggested that 
the school buildings be the town hall, be the capitol of the little 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 7 

democracies which we are planning, and that the school building be 
the voting place and the council chamber of the citizens of those 
little democracies. Of course that will result in other parts of the 
country in the school districts and voting precincts becoming iden¬ 
tical and the organization for voting being the same as the organiza¬ 
tion for discussion and cooperation. 

In the District we have no franchise, and therefore have no re¬ 
sponsibility for discussion before voting which the citizens in the 
other parts of the country have; but we can perform the major part 
of the town meeting, the major duty, and that is the development of 
sound public opinion through public discussion. And, moreover, 
we have the same solemn responsibility for the young people of the 
District that the people in the other parts of the country have to 
their community, and we have our town halls waiting for us to use. 
But we have not the right by law to use them at the times we wish 
and for the purpose we see fit, so that we ask the Congress to secure 
us the right (I mean the majority of us) to decide when we shall 
use our town halls. 

We have no definition of school districts in the District of Colum¬ 
bia, and we have no definition of voting precincts, naturally, since we 
do not vote. So we suggest that the board of education define the 
territories within which persons must reside to belong to this town 
meeting. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Right there, will you pardon me a question? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I understand by this bill that the area to be set 
out by the board is to be purely geographical. 

Miss Wilson. Purely geographical. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And no other conditions obtain as to the question 
of the persons who attend it? 

Miss Wilson. No other limitation to membership, you mean? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then, how would you do in handling the question 
of race, or a proposition of that character, when in one territory 
nearest to what you term the “ town hall,” to the schoolroom, there 
would be two races? 

Miss Wilson. I believe that will settle itself. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I know, but these are matters that we must deter¬ 
mine before we act, if you will pardon me. 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is that not settled in the District by reason of the 
fact that we have separate schools? We have buildings for the 
colored people and we have buildings for the white people? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Lloyd. If you authorized a colored school building to be used, 
it would be for the colored people of that locality? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Lloyd. While if a white school building be authorized, it 
would be for the white people in that locality? 

Miss Wilson. It would naturally be so, but, of course, this gen¬ 
tleman is right that there is nothing in this law. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is what I want to get your idea about. It 
seems to me it ought to be perfected and restricted, not only geo¬ 
graphically, but on the race lines. There is a subdivision here and 
the race line is drawn in Washington in the attendance at schools, 


8 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

and it seems to me the same condition ought to obtain in these 
forums, in the use of the school buildings, as obtain in the school 
attendance; otherwise you would have mixed audiences in each one 
of the forum buildings, it seems to me. 

Miss Wilson. And you think that ought to be regulated by law? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Otherwise I do not see how you can regulate it. 

Miss Wilson. I believe it would be regulated in the way Mr. 
Lloyd suggested, but, of course, that is not a foregone conclusion. 

Mr. Edward J. Ward. May I simply put in this statement, Mr. 
Chairman, that when that matter was first brought up the question 
as to whether it would be necessary to include any statements in 
the law was put up both to the president of the board of educa¬ 
tion and to the District Commissioners, the two bodies which were 
considered for administration. They agreed that the matter would 
be properly cared for by the designation of certain buildings for 
community forums for white people and certain other buildings as 
community forums for colored people, and that it would not be 
necessary to include that in the law. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Pardon me for a moment. In section 4 you state 
distinctly that the by-laws and regulations, as adopted, shall show 
that the primary object of the association is the public education of 
the community through the open presentation and free discussion 
of public questions, “ and that nothing contained in the by-laws and 
regulations shall limit the attendance or membership of the per¬ 
sons at the meetings of the association except as provided in section 
2 of this act.” And in section 2 of this act you specifically make it 
geographical. 

Mr. Ward. The geographical designation that we use is the desig¬ 
nation of the white community. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But you do not say that. 

Mr. Ward. But that is what both of the administrative boards, 
through their chairman, have said would be their policy. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But that is not what your law says. 

Mr. Ward. But I am simply stating that these two chairmen, 
speaking for the responsible boards of administration, said it would 
be handled in that way. 

Mr. Focht. Inasmuch as you have given this subject great con¬ 
sideration, and, as it is entirely new to most of the committee—cer¬ 
tainly to myself—may I ask you to state definitely to the committee 
if it is your conclusion that a color line should be drawn in this law? 

Mr. Ward. It does not seem to be necessary in view of the fact 
that there are two separate systems of schools. The fact is that in 
the uses so far made of the schoolhouses by adults, there has been 
no confusion on the color line, and there has been no attempt by 
the colored people to come into the white buildings. So that my 
judgment w T ould be, as Miss Wilson has suggested, that the matter 
would take care of itself. 

Mr. Focht. I beg your pardon, but this is not a school question; 
this is a forum for the discussion of questions aside from school 
questions. I am trying to get an answer from you as to whether 
you think the colored people should be allowed in there or not? 

Mr. Ward. No; I do not think they should be allowed in there. 

Mr. Focht. In the United States anywhere? 

Mr. Ward. I think not in the United States anywhere. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 9 

Mr. Focht. Anywhere; in any forum here or anyw T here in the 
United States. 

Mr. Ward. I n New York State and in the State of Wisconsin, 
with which I am familiar, both the colored and the white people 
use the same building as colored and white children use the same 
school buildings. But where that is not the case, where the children 
are separated, the adults would be separated. 

Mr. Focht. I am afraid you have not answered my question. 

Mr. Mapes. If we are making, as has been suggested, a model law 
here for the District, is it or not your opinion that we should make 
any distinction of that kind? 

Mr. Ward. Not in the law if it can be avoided. If necessary, yes. 
If it will take care of itself without that, I would say it would be 
better not to include it in the law. Pardon my coming in. 

Miss Wilson. I am glad you did. Another suggestion against 
the limitation has been this: People have asked “ Why limit the 
attendance in these forums; why not throw each forum open to the 
public ? ” Anybody who makes that argument- 

Mr. Johnson. By u public” you mean the entire District? 

Miss Wilson. The entire District of Columbia. Anybody who 
argues that way does not see the side of thorough organization for 
responsible action, but sees just rather a haphazard arrangement for 
audiences and speeches in the school buildings. Of course, where 
that is so, a few people in a community use the forum for discussion 
of particular features, and they attract to the school buildings the 
people who are fanatics on the special subjects in which this group 
of people are interested. There are forums like that in New York 
City and other places, but it simply means a few people secure a 
very nice auditorium to argue their special cause and attract fanatics 
who have a chance to air their views on that particular subject. 

Do you not see that is an entirely different form of organization 
from this town-meeting forum, where there is a responsible member¬ 
ship and where that membership is responsible not onlv for orderly 
action, but where, I think, in a neighborhood organization, the whole 
people should be responsible for the orderly meeting, and they have the 
responsibility for the welfare of the young people in that community? 
Tn other words, they have a definite responsibility. And, moreover, 
they have a secretary who is in sympathy, who is responsible for the 
administration of the building, for the forum building, and they 
have one person who is at all times responsible for the administration 
of the buildings and so is able to coordinate the activities in that 
building and to unify and simplify the whole thing. One is just a 
haphazard, rather mixed-up arrangement, and the other is an organic 
thing, regular and responsible, an organization of responsible people 
assuming the responsibility for careful discussion and serious dis¬ 
cussion, and for action. And, also, they know each other. These 
same people will meet regularly and they will get to know each other 
and really bo able to be effective, whereas the other is an audience 
every Sunday in a public-school building. So far so good; but it is 
not really constructive in its responsibility. 

As I said, these first two sections provide for the territories to be 
outlined by the board of education, because there is no outlining 
of the school districts now. 


10 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 


The main provisions of the third and fourth sections of this bill 
are that the superintendent of schools shall help in the organization 
of these community forums, or that the principal of the particular 
school where the forum is to be organized shall help in the organiza¬ 
tion; and that after the organization has been formed and made 
its own by-laws, the principal of the school shall serve as secretary of 
the organization. We consider that is a very important provision, 
both from the point of view of the District of Columbia itself and 
the point of view of the country (I mean it would be an example 
to the country), because it is very important that one person shall 
be responsible for the administration of the school building. It is 
the only wav bv which we can get coordination and simplification. 
Furthermore, the principal is already there and naturally the central 
figure in the school building. He is the man who is nearest the 
children; and if we make the man who is already nearest the children 
simply our agent in promoting happiness and health and broaden¬ 
ing the education of the children, then we shall have a very vital 
connecting link between us and the children in the man who is al¬ 
ready near them. And it seems to me it is the only way to get unifi¬ 
cation in the system of education. 

We are planning a system of education for our older people in 
the same way that we have a system of education for our younger 
people and, furthermore, planning for a vital connection between 
the older people and the young people in a community home or com¬ 
munity headquarters. The simplest way is to have one person re¬ 
sponsible for the building and one person who is the agent or con¬ 
necting link between us and the children, and so we suggest that the 
principal of the school building be always the secretary. 

Now, in the District of Columbia, which is benighted and in¬ 
adequate in some respects, the school principals all have too much to 
do. They have teaching; they have to teach all day long, most of 
them, and it is really too much to ask of them unless they find they 
can do so, to do this extra work. So we have provided in the bill 
that the principal can nominate a person to take his place and we 
take it for granted he or she will nominate some one who is entirely 
in sympathy with the education authorities, who is in sympathy with 
the principal himself and who will be constantly in conference with 
the principal so that we can get a good deal of the coordination 
which we would get if the principal were there. We have left it 
possible for the principal to be secretary and we have established the 
principle that he should be in the bill in the eyes of the country, 
and we have made it possible for him to be so in the future when he 
will be relieved of his teaching. I have no doubt that our system of 
education in the District of Columbia will not stay behind the way 
it is and that we will make the principal the executive officer and 
not burden him with a specialized duty such as teaching is. Teach¬ 
ing is a specialized duty and ought to be given to teachers, and the 
principal we believe ought to be the executive officer in authority 
over the children and the executive under us, the grown-up people 
of the District of Columbia. 

The next section provides that the meetings of the association 
shall be at such times as the organization—that is, the neighborhood 
organization—shall designate. Now, here comes a question which 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 11 

has caused a great deal of excitement, I am afraid. It is supposed 
that we have asked to be introduced in the Congress of the United 
States a very iniquitous and shocking bill, which suggests that we 
have meetings on Sunday afternoons." As you see, the bill does not 
say anything about Sunday afternoons. The question before Con¬ 
gress is not whether it is a good thing to have meetings on Sunday 
afternoons, but whether the people of the District of Columbia shail 
have the right to say when they wish to meet in their school build¬ 
ings. The question is whether the people of the District of Colum¬ 
bia are to be in authority in the use of their buildings, or whether 
the board of education is to be in authority over the adults in the 
use of the school buildings. That is the simple question before Con¬ 
gress, and I think any democratic Congress (democratic with a little 
u d ,? ) must say that a majority of a community has a right to say 
when they shall use the school buildings; otherwise I do not see how 
there can be any dignified use by the people of their own buildings. 
I do not think it is any business of Congress or of the board of edu¬ 
cation or of anyone of us here to decide whether it is a good thing 
to have meetings on Sunday afternoons. I believe that is the busi¬ 
ness of the people who are going to do the meeting in a country 
which is free religiously and politically. So the only question for 
you to decide is whether the people shall designate the uses of their 
own school buildings and the time for such uses. That is the only 
question before you, and I do not think the Congress has any right 
to talk about the Sunday question at all. If they want to do that, 
they can put in a law against anything improper, like public meet¬ 
ings, on Sunday afternoons. We consider that a public meeting on a 
Sunday afternoon is a good thing, but that is not here nor there. 
The question is shall the people decide or shall the board of educa¬ 
tion decide. 

The next sections provide for the use of the school buildings by the 
young people and children outside of school hours under the au¬ 
thority of the community organization and the board of education— 
a joint responsibility. We believe that it is the solemn duty of the 
grown-up people of a community to see that the children and young 
people have a clean, sweet, wholesome place in which to find health¬ 
ful recreation; and we also believe that it is the responsibility of the 
* grown-up people in every way possible to broaden and deepen and 
vitalize the education of the young people through such means as 
civic clubs, debating clubs, art, music, and every other means they 
can conceive. In other words, I mean the adults of the community 
ought to have something to do with the education of the young 
people, and that they can do so best in a place where the young 
people are already receiving their education. 

It is this responsibility of the grown-up people for the education 
and happiness and health of the young people which we believe 
makes it absolutely imperative that Congress should give us, a ma¬ 
jority of us, the right to use our school buildings and the full 
liberty and authority in our school buildings outside of school 
hours. We do not see how otherwise, with any self-respect or with 
any respect from the children, we can conduct activities for the 
children in the school building. It is just exactly this way, we in¬ 
tend to make the school buildings community homes. That is the 


12 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

reason we make the difference here between u community center” 
and u community forum.” Of course the whole thing is really one, 
but just for the sake of being definite in the law we use the two ex¬ 
pressions. But the whole thing is really a community home, a com¬ 
munity headquarters for the children and the grown-up people. 
Suppose in a private home an outside body should designate what 
should go on in that home, do you think the children would have any 
respect for the grown-up people in the home? No; they would not, 
and the grown-up people would not have any self-respect. And it is 
exactly that way in the school building; the people must have com¬ 
plete authority in the school building if they are, in a dignified and 
worthy way, to perform their duties for the young people of the 
District and keep the respect of the young people of the District. 
Why, we believe that is one of the strongest reasons for giving us full 
liberty in the school building. 

Of course the agent for us in the promotion of activities for the 
children will be our secretary, who will be the principal of the school 
building or his nominee. So you see he is really the connecting 
link between us and the children. And of course the board of edu¬ 
cation will also be in cooperation with us, as they are in authority 
over the children, too. But we must be given full authority as to the 
times and uses of a school building; I mean our uses of a school 
building. And then we must be given full authority to be there and 
advise and help with the activities of the children. 

The last provision of this act is the one which I am afraid will 
cause the most opposition. You know what the last provision is; it 
is for the compensation of the secretary, the lighting, heating, and 
janitor service in connection with the community center and com¬ 
munity forum uses of the building. Now it seems very easy to get 
people to admit that recreation is a public function. I suppose that 
is because it is very easy to make an impression when it comes to 
an appeal for the children. And I think that is something very 
beautiful and natural about the American public. When you say 
it is their business to do things for the children they will say * k Yes ” 
right away. And another thing. I suppose, why the} 7 say it is the 
business of the public to provide recreation is that it is simply going 
one step further in admitting that the education of the children is 
the business of the public, and that is something that has been ad- * 
mitted for a very long time. But it seems very hard to convince 
the public it is its second duty to provide for the self-education of 
the public itself. I do not see why the public should stop in its 
participation in education with the young people. Why not go on 
and provide for its own education and for its own self-government? 

It has been suggested that the community organizations would 
feel more self-respect if they had to pay for the use of the build¬ 
ing; if they had to pay dues and had to pay their own secretary. 
Do you feel any lack of self-respect or does Congress feel any lack 
of self-respect because all the lighting and heating and secretarial 
service is supplied them out of the peoples’ money? No; they do 
not feel any lack of self-respect, because they are performing a re¬ 
sponsible public service. Now I contend that the citizenship of the 
United States is performing a responsible public service when it 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 13 

organizes with the declared purpose of thoughtfully discussing pub¬ 
lic questions and all acting together for the public welfare; and they 
are not performing that public service which in a democracy they 
should perform until they do that. In the older days of Athens (I 
just found this out, although I presume you all know it) they used 
to pay the citizens when they came to the market place to take part 
in the public discussions, so much importance did they attach to 
public spirit as expressed in the participation in public meetings. 
We are not advocating that the citizens be paid; but we are main¬ 
taining that the meetings of the citizenship are as worthy of public 
support as the meetings of their representatives, and that the citi¬ 
zens should have all the machinery that their representatives have 
and that they should be paid for in the same worthy, dignified, and 
permanent way as the expenses for the meetings of their representa¬ 
tives are paid. In no other way can these organizations really be 
public organizations. If they are paid for in any other way they are 
private and they are not worthy to be communities, to be parts in 
a system of self-government. And what we are really trying to 
set up through the processes of this movement is the machinery of 
democracy, a foundation to democracy and a channel for it. And 
we believe that these organizations are really going to be units in 
self-government, and that they are absolutely necessary to any real 
self-government in our countr} 7 . 

And so I do not see how anybody who really stands for democ¬ 
racy can contend that the organization of the citizenship should be 
done on a private basis any more than they can contend that the 
organization of the representatives of the citizenship should be 
maintained on a private basis; that is, out of private funds. 

I am not here to argue for democracy; that is too big an order. 
But if you believe in democracy I think that you must stand by the 
principle that the citizens should organize for discussion and coop¬ 
eration and that their organization for that purpose is as important 
and worthy and dignified as the organization of their representa¬ 
tives for the same purpose. [Applause.] 

May I make one other suggestion which I forgot. Miss Fairley, 
Miss Norton, and Mr. Davis are here, and they want very much to 
say something for the bill; and then I wanted to ask if I might be 
permitted to say something later on after the opposition has spoken. 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. Thank you. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you want to direct your side of it, or want 
somebody else to direct it ? 

Miss Wilson. I think Mr. Ward could direct it. 

Mr. Ward. I would be very glad to help. Miss Wilson is chair¬ 
man of the committee. 

Mr. Johnson. Then, Miss Wilson, we will accept you as the rep¬ 
resentative of those who are in favor of this bill, and you can select 
who shall be heard. You and Mr. Ward may direct your side as 
you. please. 

Miss Wilson. I suggest that Miss Fairley, principal of the Grover 
Cleveland School, who really called the first meeting of citizens to 
meet in a school building, be heard at this time. 


14 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

STATEMENT OF MISS FRANCES S. FAIRLEY, PRINCIPAL OF THE 
GROVER CLEVELAND SCHOOL. 

Miss Fairley. Since we recognize no higher authority than the 
will of the organized people I am present at this hearing in 
response to a request and in compliance with a demand of the 
people of the Grover Cleveland community to advocate the passage 
of this Hollis-Johnson bill, and to tell you something of the* work of 
the Grover Cleveland School, which organized the first social center 
and the first community forum in the District of Columbia, 

I have been a principal of the schools in that neighborhood for 13 
years; 8 years of Phelps, two squares away from the Grover Cleve¬ 
land, and for the last 5 years, since 1911, at the Grover Cleveland. 
At the Phelps School I found very crowded conditions in the neigh¬ 
borhood, and a dingy, miserable building. In 1911 I went to the 
Grover Cleveland, a fine, beautiful school building, equipped with 
an assembly hall, and sanitary in every way. I found the people in 
the neighborhood whom I had been teaching for the past eight years 
largely made up of foreigners. Looking over the records of the 
school since the month of February, this year, I find that in my own 
building at the present time 63 per cent are foreign people. 

Mr. Lloyd. What do you mean by “foreign people”; you mean 
people whose parents were born elsewhere? 

Miss Fairley. I mean children whose parents were born in for¬ 
eign lands. Some of the children and parents, by taking the names 
from the register, have actual continental European names, largely 
Russians and Italians. 

Mr. Focht. May I ask you right there in what occupations are 
their parents engaged? 

Miss Fairley. A great many of the Jewish people keep stores; a 
great many of the Italians are barbers and laborers and fruit vendors. 
We have a number of Greeks, also. The community is one that has 
seen better days. There are fine old houses there that are occupied, 
some few, by the old inhabitants; but the negro population has spread 
through that community to such an extent that it now largely out¬ 
numbers the white population. 

There are 63 per cent of foreign people. We are expected to 
Americanize them. If those people go into any other community in 
the United States than the District of Columbia, they are immedi¬ 
ately surrounded with government. They have voting in their dis¬ 
tricts: they are looked upon as prospective voters and they are edu¬ 
cated in American institutions. They come to the District of Colum¬ 
bia and the school is the only institution in which they can learn any¬ 
thing of government. The teacher and the principal of the school 
are the first American friends the children have, the first friends 
of the family. 

Now, working in that community and with those people, I felt that 
the school was a vital thing; that the more use that could be made of 
the school building the better it would be for those people. We must 
Americanize them and we are doing it. If I may tell of an instance, 
I should like to do so. Little Annie, a Russian girl, born in Russia, 
in my school last year, the eighth grade, used to bring her little 
brother, 3 years old, to the playground. She had to care for this 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 15 

child after school hours every day. One day Annie brought the 
little brother to me to show me what he could do. “ Tell Miss Fairley 
your name; tell Miss Fairley where you live.” The child lisped a 
reply. The third question gave me joy. It was, “ What flag do you 
live under,” and the little child lisped out, “ The red, white, and blue.” 

Now, when you realize that is where they are really being trained, 
through the school, you know that is the highest work of the school, 
to make them good American citizens. When I went to this Grover 
Cleveland School, my whole purpose was to make that building tell 
for all it was worth in the community. We had an assembly hall. 
The first winter of 1912, we began our social-center work. We had 
classes for school story clubs, volunteer workers. We had some paid 
workers. We had some industrial teachers who taught the children 
after school in industry. Miss Cornelia Aldis, who is well known for 
her philanthropic work in the city, gave the money that carried on 
the work for the first winter. Then the following year Mr. Thurston 
had lights put in our building. At that time came Miss Norton, a 
teacher in the first grade in 1913, who has been a genius of inspira¬ 
tion and help to me. The work had been going on for a year when 
she came. With her inspiration, we added more work, much dramatic 
work; and when the summer came and we felt the building had meant 
so much to the children during the winter, we wanted to carry the 
work through the summer. There was no money with which it could 
be done, and Miss Norton, Miss Bell, and another agreed, and I went 
to work to raise money to pay the janitor and the teacher in charge 
for the summer work. We did it. We begged and borrowed. The 
people in the neighborhood helped us. We carried on dressmaking, 
carpenter work; shower baths were installed, which meant a great 
deal to the crowded children in the community, and we carried the 
work on through that first summer, having every Friday night enter¬ 
tainments for all the people in the neighborhood. The children 
simply loved the school and you could not get them away. 

The following winter we carried the work on still further, and it 
has gone on this way until this last January. All that time we 
had had civic clubs for the boys; we had had girls’ clubs; we had lec¬ 
tures; we had industrial training, dramatic work, and all kinds of 
activities that were interesting and developed the health of the 
people and the children in that neighborhood. But we felt all along 
that we were lacking in not getting the older people, the grown-up 
people, organized. So that in January of this year when Miss Nor¬ 
ton and I attended a meeting of the Wilson Normal School, at which 
Mr. Thurston, the superintendent of schools, and Mr. Ward were the 
speakers, and I met Mr. Ward for the first time after his arrival in 
the city, I asked him if he would come to the school and help us 
organize the grown-up people into a community assembly. Call it a 
citizens’ association, call it what you would, it was to get the older 
people into touch with the work of the school and to get them 
together, so that they might know each other better and we might 
know them better. 

Mr. Lloyd. Miss Fairley, these hearings, you know, are presented 
to the Members of Congress who are very busy men, and if you can 
shorten your statement I would be very much pleased. What we 
want to get at is the community forum proposition and the necessity 


16 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

for its establishment. Your recitation is exceedingly interesting, but 
much of it thus far has not been on the direct necessity for the 
forum. 

Mr. Focht. I want to ask about any conflict there might be with 
your present school government. In speaking of democracy, if you 
are going to have pure democracy then you are not going to have any 
school board elected by the people, as I understand, but are going to 
have a town meeting, and the community will take care of it through 
a secretary, and arrange for the taxes and government and every¬ 
thing; and I would like to have you explain the responsibility and 
the authority of this gentleman you are going to appoint here. If 
he was to be in absolute control, it seems to me you would not need to 
raise the race question or any other question, as he would have abso¬ 
lute, autocratic power as to who shall be admitted or not into these 
meetings. It says, in line 25, page 4, and line 1, page 5, that he is to 
have the discretion. I would like to have you explain that as you go 
along, because it seems to me it is very important. It is in the dis¬ 
cretion of the executive secretary, and he becomes a czar of this whole 
proposition instead of having a pure democracy. 

Miss Fairley. As I understand (I may not have the proper concep¬ 
tion), the schools are going along just as under the board of educa¬ 
tion, superintendent, and all that. The community forum is organ¬ 
ized from the people of the neighborhood, who are and must be in 
that neighborhood or they can not participate in meetings of the 
board; and the secretary, through them, is to carry on this work. 

Mr. Focht. It really has no relationship to the school govern¬ 
ment? 

Miss Fairley. No. 

Mr. Focht. All this veribage simply means to use the school 
houses for whatever purpose you desire to use them ? 

Miss Fairley. It simply means to use the school building; and I 
believe the more the school building is used for the benefit of the peo¬ 
ple, the better it is. 

Miss Wilson. May I just speak to that point one minute. The 
secretary will be the agent of the grown-up people in carrying out 
their wishes in respect to the recreation of the young people. The 
question I think you were speaking to—I did not hear everything you 
said—was simply whether the older people should be there or not. 
It is just the same as if in a private home the older people said, 
“ Now, you can have the parlor on Friday night, but you must have 
a chaperon there. If your chaperon and you want us there, we w T ill 
be there; if not, we will be in the back parlor or somewhere else.” 
In the initiation of these activities in the parlor, the grown-up peo¬ 
ple are responsible; it is simply a question of whether they will be 
there. 

Mr. Focht. Of course there are activities around the schools where 
he would probably be convenient; but in this case it strikes me the 
democracy feature of it is taken away when you put it in the control 
here of a single individual. 

Miss Wilson. The single individual, as I understand the bill, is 
the agent of the other people; and it is simply a question of whether 
they are to be there at these meetings or not. 

Mr. Focht. That is at his discretion? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 17 

Miss Wilson. That is at liis discretion, and that is a minor ques¬ 
tion as to whether all the parents are to be there or not. 

Mr. Focht. “ Shall be open and available at his discretion.” 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Focht. The school will be open. 

Miss Wilson. Because you see in the beginning the grown-up peo¬ 
ple have designated what night the school shall be for the children, 
and the question of whether it shall be for them too is at the discre¬ 
tion of their agent and the children’s master. It is a minor question, 
I believe, as to whether they are to be there or not. 

Mr. Ward. Mr. Chairman, may I make the point that the discre¬ 
tion of the secretary does not apply to the adult meetings in the com¬ 
munity forum.: It applies to the young people’s meetings in the 
activities included in the community center. It does not apply to the 
adult assembly. 

Mr. Ragsdale. May I ask you just one question: You say you are 
living there now in a community of mixed races? 

Miss Fairley. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you think it is wise to enact a law in which no 
discretion whatever shall be vested in the school commissioners, and 
that upon application of any 20 people, adult persons, without regard 
to their character, without regard to their race, without regard to 
any consideration other than the fact that they live w T ithin half a 
mile of this building and that they are adults, that they should have 
the power to form this forum and take over the school building and 
run it in disregard of the school commissioners of that particular 
locality ? 

Miss Fairley. As I understand it, the whole forum is in the dis¬ 
cretion of the government of the District—the school authorities and 
the commissioners. And the purpose of the forum meeting is for an 
orderly—I think it uses that word—an orderly meeting. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes; but does not this divest the commissioners of 
authority and invest it in the forum officers? 

Miss Fairley. Not as I understand it, except in the regulation of 
their local affairs. 

Mr. Lloyd. They direct their own local affairs. After the organ¬ 
ization is effected, then their own officers conduct their own affairs, 
and they can have any kind of exercises or any kind of lectures or 
anything else which the local officers think proper to designate. In 
other words, the school board would not designate the officers, as I 
understand it, or designate what should be done in the forum after 
its organization. The school board has nothing to do with it except 
to make the organization of the territory within which the organiza¬ 
tion may be effected. After you have perfected your organization, 
then you conduct your own affairs, and the school board would only 
have a general supervision? 

Miss Fairley. As I understand it, if anything is wrong—if the 
meetings were not orderly they could be stopped. 

Mr. Lloyd. You think that the school board would have that 
authority? 

Miss Fairley. I think that the commissioners would have that 
authority, or, as it is now vested, the school board would have the 
authority. 

38523—16-2 


18 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Wilson. You think the school board would have what author- 

ity? . . . 

Miss Fairley. Would have authority to regulate it if the building 
should be misused. 

Miss Wilson. No; the school board would have no authority in 
connection with the adult use of the school buildings. That is in the 
hands of the neighborhood organization, which organization is open 
to every single person within the territory designated by the board 
of education. The 20 people were simply a means of starting the 
organization, but there is no danger of their running the organiza¬ 
tion, because after they start the machinery for its being formed 
every single person in the district can belong to the organization. 
And that has been tried out elsewhere; for instance, in Wisconsin 20 
or more people in a certain neighborhood can start the organization. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Miss Wilson, the point I make is this: The only 
restriction upon 20 people is that they must reside within a radius 
of one half a mile. 

Miss Wilson. That is just to insure their being in the territory. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I know; but that is the only restriction upon them, 
other than that they should be adults. 

Miss Wilson. Why should there be any other restriction? 

Mr. Ragsdale. For instance, I think there ought to be race re¬ 
strictions. If 20 negroes lived within half a mile of a white school, 
this law is mandatory and 20 negroes could form a society and then 
under this law they have the absolute right to go in there and have 
their forum meetings in the white school. The second point is Ihese 
20 people might be people who would be absolutely undesirable. 

Miss Wilson. May I answer that? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Certainly. 

Miss Wilson. The whole spirit of the law is that all of the mem¬ 
bers, all of the citizens of a neighborhood, within a given radius, 
shall have a right to go to the town hall, just as in the old New 
England towns, all the citizens had the right to go to the town hall. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Will you pardon me right there? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Your assembly there under the town officials was 
not as a matter of right, but as a matter of privilege, and the town 
officials had the right to disperse that meeting at any time they be¬ 
lieved it to be in the best interests of the community. You are tak¬ 
ing this authority from the duly organized school officials, divesting 
them of that authority, and vesting this right in another organiza¬ 
tion aside from the educational organization, and giving them the 
right to go there as a matter of right and not as a matter of priv¬ 
ilege. 

Miss Wilson. We believe in any democracy; it is a matter of right 
that the citizenship should use the buildings which they have paid 
for. We believe it is necessary in a democracy that the citizenship 
should have headquarters. Personally, I believe almost every demo¬ 
crat (with a little “ d ”) would believe that a majority of the citizens 
in a neighborhood are as trustworthy to decide what shall be done 
in that building as any small group of people like the board of 
education. 

Mr. Ragsdale. With regard to race, color, or anything? 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 19 

Miss Wilson. Then we go back to the original question which the 
gentleman over here brought up, that is. whether or not in the law 
we should make a distinction which is already made in the District 
on the matter of the color line. Now, that is an open question; that 
is for you to decide. I think that question would decide itself by 
the designation of one building for the colored community forum 
and another for the white community forum. I mean the schools 
where the colored children go would naturally be the forum for the 
colored people. But, if you believe that the other thing will happen 
and if you are afraid of it, and you believe it ought to be safe¬ 
guarded in the law, then let Congress amend the law. Personally, 
I do not think that ought to he put in the law: I think it ought to 
take care of itself, because 1 do not think any law ought to make a 
color distinction. I think the community ought to decide for itself 
and the community can really decide for itself. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You do not think the law ought to make a color 
distinction ? 

Miss Wilson. I personally do not think any law ought to make 
the distinction of color. I think the community can and will settle 
that point. [Applause.] 

Mr. Mafes. May I ask you a question. You know what authority 
or what right the board of education has to open the school build¬ 
ings to the community now for the purpose of discussion or holding 
public meetings, as it sees fit? 

Miss Wilson. Under the act that was passed last year opening the 
school buildings for social centers, the board of education has the 
right to open the buildings at their discretion for social-center pur¬ 
poses. 

Mr. Mapes. Do you consider it necessary to supplement that law 
with a law similar to this in order to give the people the right to 
go to the school buildings and discuss public questions—questions in 
which they are interested? 

Miss Wilson. I think this bill is broader and brings about the 
social-center idea more quickly. 

Mr. Mapes. Has there been any difficulty in the District to get 
the school buildings- 

Miss Wilson. I do not know. 

Mr. Mapes (continuing). For such use as they see fit? 

Miss Wilson. I do not know. 

Mr. Vinson. When you were interrupted a few moments ago you 
were making an observation in regard to work of this or a similar 
character carried on in your particular school. I would like to have 
you finish that line of thought, if you please. 

Miss Fairley. The line of thought of the work ? 

Mr. Vinson. Of what you were doing in your own neighborhood. 

Miss Fairley. I think I had reached the point that we decided we 
must organize the adults of the neighborhood. At a meeting at the 
Normal School, at which Mr. Thurston, superintendent of the 
schools, and Mr. Ward were present, in January, I asked Mr. Ward 
to come to the Grover Cleveland School and help us organize the 
men of the neighborhood. We sent out a call through the pupils of 
the school to their parents, asking the men to be present at a man’s 
meeting. The first meeting was for men only. Mr. Ward came and 
a temporary organization was made and the next meeting was called 



20 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

for the following Sunday. At that meeting I said I felt that the 
board of education would not grant us the use of the building on 
Sunday. However, it was a question that had to be determined 
sooner or later and it was decided to ask the board of education for 
the use of the building. That permission was granted. 

Miss Wilson. May I suggest, Miss Fairley, that the whole history 
of this movement here in the District is in the brief of the commit¬ 
tee and we are going to file that with Mr. Lloyd as chairman. It 
is simply a suggestion which I make with a view to conserving time. 
We think they will read it. 

Mr. Vinson. Did they grant you the use of the building on Sun¬ 
day? 

Miss Fairley. They granted us the use of the building for two 
Sundays. Then the question was taken up by the superintendent of 
schools. He wrote. I think, to find out what was being done in other 
cities. Then permission was refused, and after that the meetings 
were held in other places. 

Mr. Vinson. Do you not think Sunday afternoon is a good time to 
have a meeting of this character—is a well appropriation of an 
ideal day? 

Miss Fairley. I was very strictly bred and at first I felt against 
the Sunday meeting. After I had attended two of them and found 
that the people in the neighborhood needed just the sort of meetings 
they were having I felt absolutely convinced that they were right, 
and there was no further doubt in my mind. 

Mr. Vinson. Did the adult members of families who had children 
in the school attend ? 

Miss Fairley. They attended. 

Mr. Vinson. What per cent would you say? 

Miss Fairley. I could not tell you that; but a large number of 
them came to the first two meetings, and since then they have gone 
away down to the Museum, which costs car fare and all that, and 
down to the Public Library to attend meetings. So that I know if 
we had the meetings in a building convenient to their homes there 
would be a large attendance. 

Mr. Bailey. May I ask you a question: There is some opposition 
to this proposition? 

Miss Fairley. There is? 

Mr. Bailey. I ask you if there is? 

Miss Fairley. I have in my hands a petition signed by over 200 
people- 

Mr. Bailey. I just want to know, if you please, madam, if you 
will pardon the interruption, whether there is opposition. 

Miss Fairley. So far as our neighborhood is concerned, I have 
heard of only two persons who opposed Sunday meetings. 

Mr. Bailey. What was the objection? 

Miss Fairley. The objection was it was a desecration of the 
Sabbath. 

Mr. Bailey. Have you heard any other objection except it is a 
desecration of the Sabbath ? 

Miss Fairley. That is the only objection I have heard. 

Mr. Lloyd. What kind of exercises did you have on Sunday? 

Miss Fairley. At the first meeting we had for our principal 
speaker Representative Page, Commissioner Newman, Mr. Blair, 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 21 

president of the board of education, and Mr. Edwards, the president 
of one of the citizens’ associations of the District. 

Mr. Lloyd. You did not have any trouble if you had such men 
as that? 

Miss Fairley. No. At the second meeting we had Commissioner 
Brownlow and Maj. Pullman. At the next meeting we had Repre¬ 
sentative Fess and last Sunday Representative Nolan. And the peo¬ 
ple in the neighborhood feel that they are being educated. 

Mr. Focht. Are they mostly English and philosophical discourses? 

Miss Fairley. They were discourses on the affairs of the country. 

Mr. Focht. The tariff, the literary test, and all that? 

Mr. Vinson. I do not presume Mr. Fess would engage in a tariff 
discussion. 

Mr. Focht. I would like to know from Miss Wilson (you discuss 
democracy with a little “d”), just so we can understand: You feel 
we should consider now that this is possibly the inception of the final 
accomplishment of your idea, which seems to be a pure democracy, 
with no representative government and no school board? 

Miss Wilson. No. I do not believe personally (although I think 
possibly some people who are interested in this movement would 
disagree with me), for a long time, at any rate, that we can dispense 
with representatives; but I do think that our representatives should 
know what we think and that they would have sound public opinion 
to go by, and that they would be directly responsible and have re¬ 
sponsibility to those that they represent. 

Mr. Focht. I was wondering, after you reached some conclusion, 
what agency you would employ to make it effective if you did not 
have a school board—unless you abolished everything and had a pure 
democracy. 

Miss Wilson. If you would like to know about my theories of 
government, I believe that for the city (if you do not want me to go 
any further than the city) there ought to be a very small commission 
that is at the same time the board of education, board of estimate, 
and all the boards in one; and that that commission should be elected 
by the people and the people should be organized in the way in 
which I have described to constantly discuss the questions which 
their commissioners, as representing them, are to decide and shall 
definitely express themselves so that the commissioners will have 
some way to know what the people want. 

Mr. Ragsdale. In other words, then, you would concentrate all of 
the powers of the city in a very small governing board ? 

Miss Wilson. Yes; but that board shall be elected by the people 
and be directly responsible to them. 

Mr. Vinson. And those forums you are providing for will guide 
the commissioners constantly and inform them of the people’s opin¬ 
ion, and enable them to better provide for the people, because they 
would be better acquainted with the people’s views? 

Miss Wilson. Yes; and not only that, but these centers should be 
the agencies through which the people would work; the channels for 
distributing and agents in all kinds of cooperation. 

Mr. Bailey. You have studied this question from other angles 
than from the city of Washington, have you not? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 


22 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Bailey. Have you found a difference in other communities, 
a different understanding, a better understanding, of civic affairs 
than you find here? 

Miss Wilson. Why, no; I do not think so. 

Mr. Bailey. Here is what I was trying to get at, if you will par¬ 
don me: In other communities they have had the advantage of this 
friction of ideas and opinions that we are expecting to gain here 
through this forum? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Bailey. We have not had that here? 

Miss Wilson. No. 

Mr. Bailey. We have no vote here? 

Miss Wilson. No. 

Mr. Bailey. They do not vote out in the country ? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Bailey. They exchange opinions through the ballot box ? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Bailey. I was wondering whether you had observed the con¬ 
ditions on the outside were better than what they are inside? 

Miss Wilson. I do not quite get your question. You mean there 
has been friction and opposition outside? 

Mr. Bailey. No; I do not mean that. I mean do you find a better 
understanding of public questions? 

Miss Wilson. Where there has been public discussion? 

Mr. Bailey. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. Undoubtedly. 

Mr. Bailey. Then, what we are trying to get here is a better 
development of public opinion? 

Miss Wilson. Absolutely; and cooperation of the public among 
themselves. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I just want to get your idea, if you will pardon 
one further question: Your idea is that the smaller this governing 
body and the fewer officials you have, the greater authority you give 
this governing body? 

Miss Wilson. The greater the responsibility. 

Mr. Ragsdale. All right; there can be no responsibility without 
authority and power. 

Miss Wilson. That is just a question of terms. 

Mr. Ragsdale. It is just a question of terms? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is what I thought. That being the case, you 
think the smaller this governing body is the better the government 
will be? 

Miss Wilson. I think so, for the reason that it is impossible for 
the citizenship to know what a whole lot of people in an intricate 
position, involving intricate machinery, are doing, whereas when 
they have a few people whom they hold responsible they can see 
what is going on—they can see in the way of understanding things. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The smaller this governing body the further re¬ 
moved it is from the people who issue the authority, is it not ? 

Miss Wilson. Why is that? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Because the more narrow and restricted you put 
the control of the people—into the fewer hands that you put it—cer- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 23 

tainly you will remove them that much farther from them than 
where it is distributed among a great many of their servants. 

Miss Wilson. I do not think so at all, because where it is dis¬ 
tributed among a great many of their servants it makes it impossible 
for them to keep track; it makes it possible for their servants to 
hide behind all kinds of complications. 

Mr. Ragsdale. So that the logical deduction would be that the best 
form of government would be to have it all centralized in one man ? 

Miss Wilson. No; because I think that no one person can possibly 
decide what is wisest by himself. I am a great believer in common 
counsel; so I think if you get a group of persons together who have 
departments under them and experts under them then you can get 
the wisest form of government. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Why do you select the number “ three ” as being 
exactly the right number? 

Miss Wilson. Did I say three? 

Mr. Ragsdale. I so understood. 

Miss Wilson. I do not think so. 

Mr. Ragsdale. About what number, then, would you sav ? 

Miss Wilson. I do not know, because I am not an expert; but I 
feel that a small group is a group which it is possible for the people 
to hold responsible, because they can watch a few and they can not 
watch and know about, even in the very beginning when they vote— 
I do not see how they can know about 10 or 20 or 30 candidates. 

Mr. Mapes. I would just like to get your idea of the necessity for 
this law, since I asked Miss Farley something of the same question. 
I have been handed a copy of the act that was passed last year, 
which seems to give the board of education authority to open the 
school buildings for supplementary educational purposes, civic 
meetings for the primary discussion of public questions, social cen¬ 
ters, centers of recreation, and playgrounds. 

Miss Wilson. That simply brings up the issue. The issue is this: 
Shall the majority of the people of the District of Columbia have 
the right to designate the use of the school buildings, or shall the 
school board? That bill makes it possible for the people to use the 
school buildings if the school board so desires and at times that the 
school board so desires. Now, I believe that here and all over this 
country a majority of the citizens ought to have the right to use the 
buildings which they pay for—the school buildings—as their head¬ 
quarters. I think that is really a principle of democracy. 

Mr. Mapes. Is there any difficulty, in all the schools in all com¬ 
munities, of getting the privilege which Miss Fairley got for hers ? 

Miss Wilson. Is there any difficulty—what ? 

Mr. Mapes. In getting the use of the schools from the board of 
education, as this Grover Cleveland School has done? 

Miss Wilson. There is a possibility of it, and it has already hap¬ 
pened. There is a possibility of it, and it has happened here and 
happened all over this country, that the boards of education have 
thought themselves to be in authority over the school buildings— 
over the adult use of the school buildings. 

Mr. Mapes. I do not know that you get my question. Has there 
been any practical difficulty here in this community- 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Mapes. Since this law was passed in getting a school? 


24 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Miss Wilson. Yes. The practical difficulty has been shown in that 
the beard of education refused the Grover Cleveland neighborhood 
the right to use the school building on Sunday afternoons. 

Mr. Mapes. Your idea is that the board of education ought not to 
have any control over the- 

Miss Wilson. Over the adult use of the school buildings. I think 
that is certainly a principle of the bill, and I think it is a valid prin¬ 
ciple of democracy, that a majority of the citizenship should have 
a right to use their school buildings outside of school hours. 

Mr. Fociit. As a popular expression, could that not be obtained? 
You speak of those boards later on in local communities throughout 
the States? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Focht. If your school boards—say in Pennsylvania—do 
you think that your school directors would not be responsible to 
the popular sentiment that existed, or if your forum created that 
sentiment, and would not open the school ? 

Miss Wilson. It is a question of whether they would or not, and 
it is a question that has been presented in a great many cases. In 
Wisconsin, for instance, after the bill was passed which gave the 
people the right to use the school buildings several school boards 
refused them the right and they had to be threatened with manda¬ 
mus—after the law was passed. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The only instance in this district is where you 
wished to use the building on a Sunday and the school board re¬ 
fused permission for its use on Sunday. At all other times you have 
been permitted to use it? 

Miss Wilson. That is the first time. The first time that a com¬ 
munity forum was called the very first question that came up was 
when they should meet, and that question was decided by the school 
board and not by the people. Now, that is simply typical of what 
may come up and what will come up. And, no matter whether you 
think that it is possible or may come up again or not, the principle 
should be established, to my mind, that a majority of the people 
should decide. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But as it is now the only time that it has been re¬ 
fused to you is for use on a Sunday afternoon ? 

Miss Wilson. The only time that the question ever came up, and 
the first time, as between the people and the board of education, the 
board of education did not carry out the wishes of the people. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And that particular time was as to the use of the 
school building on Sunday? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And for no other time ? 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Mapes. I am not altogether clear on one statement that you 
and this lady have made. I have confused, evidently, two differ¬ 
ent school buildings, because this lady has stated the meetings she 
had were in what I think was the Grover Cleveland School- 

Miss Wilson. Yes. 

Mr. Mapes. And if I recollect correctly the meeting that was 
addressed by Mr. Nolan was last Sunday. 

Miss Fairley. That was because the Grover Cleveland School 
Building was refused. 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 25 

Mr. Mapes. It was not in the Grover Cleveland School Building 
this meeting was held? 

Miss Fairley. No. 

Miss Wilson. That is because the school board had finally de¬ 
cided this organization could not meet in the Grover Cleveland 
School Building. 

Mr. Mapes. In what building was this ? 

Miss Fairley. In the Public Library. The Grover Cleveland 
community first met at the Museum, and since then at the Public 
Library. 

Mr. Mapes. They based their refusal entirely upon the ground 
that these meetings were being held on Sunday? 

Miss Wilson. Yes; and I do not believe that is a question for them 
to decide or for you or for Congress, but for the majority of the 
people. 

Mr. Mapes. That is rather a high ground to take—pardon me. 

Miss Wilson. It is a very democratic ground. 

Mr. Focht. Was the refusal to grant the use of the schoolhouses 
predicated on the fact that these Congressmen were coming there to 
discuss political questions? Would they have refused if they had 
thought you were coming there to discuss school questions or ques¬ 
tions pertaining to the education of youth or adults ? 

Miss Wilson. I do not know; I do not know the mind of the board 
of education. 

Mr. Focht. I am free to say for my part I do net know that I my¬ 
self would want to have political speeches made on Sunday after¬ 
noons in public schoolhouses. The lady said the speeches she heard 
were most deeply discussions of political questions. 

Miss Fairley. I said affairs of the country. 

Mr. Focht. And this bill is to provide an opportunity to discuss 
questions pertaining to the education of youth ? 

Miss Wilson. It is not to provide for the discussion of any ques¬ 
tions at all except what the people of the neighborhood wish discused. 

Mr. Focht. Exactly; but the fact is that inasmuch as you have 
had one refusal evidently on the ground of the political feature, you 
still contend you should get free use of these schoolhouses in this 
country (that is the entire question) for the discussion of questions 
of the forum? 

Miss Wilson. You are contending against the facts, because the 
use of the school buildings has been refused by boards of education 
many times because they are very much afraid of political discus¬ 
sions; and sometimes the reason they are afraid (I do not mean this 
school board here, because other than it was a Sunday afternoon dis¬ 
cussion, they did not give any reason that I know of and I under¬ 
stand that is the reason) in other parts of the country to use the 
school building has been because the boards of education presumably 
were in politics (I mean politics in the sense of playing the game 
for their personal interests), and they were afraid of public dis¬ 
cussion. And lots of people are afraid of public discussion; and that 
is all the more reason why we should have it. [Applause.] 

Mr. Focht. You think it ought to have this discussion on a Sun¬ 
day afternoon—political discussion? 

Miss Wilson. Personally I think a discussion of public questions 
on a Sunday afternoon is worthy of the Sabbath or any other day 


26 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

[applause], because people are serving the good; they are trying to 
find out what is for the welfare of the community. And personally, 
for myself, I would feel as if I were doing a self-sacrificing thing 
instead of going driving. [Applause.] 

Mr. Fociit. Inasmuch as you have no politics in this city, I do not 
see how it relates to this case. 

Miss AVilson. We suppose that Congress cares a little about what 
the citizens of the District of Columbia think. Whether they do or 
not, we suppose that they care and that they would like to find out 
in a most valid way what the people think. And also, as shown in 
this bill, we believe the people of the District of Columbia have a 
very definite responsibility to the young people, and they can carry 
it out in this way and can not be free to carry it out in any other way. 

Miss Fairley. I would like to leave this petition with the com¬ 
mittee. 

(The petition offered by Miss Fairley was filed with the com¬ 
mittee.) 

Miss Wilson. Mr. Lloyd, Mrs. La Follette, from Wisconsin, is 
here. As you know, the movement was started in Rochester and 
came up against the machine there, and it was very clearly demon¬ 
strated that if the thing was to go ahead freely the people must be 
guaranteed the use of the buidings. So Wisconsin passed a law 
which guaranteed the majority of the neighborhood should have the 
right to use the school buildings, and I would like you to hear Mrs. 
La Follette on this subject. [Applause.] 

Mr. Lloyd. Miss Wilson, the committee is anxious to go to the 
House, and would prefer to adjourn until 1.30 or 2. 

(After informal discussion, the committee took a recess until 1.30 
o’clock p. m.) 

AFTER RECESS. 

The committee met, pursuant to the taking of the recess, at 2 
o’clock p. m. 

Mr. Lloyd. Miss Wilson, I will be much pleased if you will have 
those who speak confine their speeches as much as practicable to five 
minutes each, and if you will designate those who are to speak we 
will leave it to you to assign the time. 

Miss Wilson. Before I call on the first speaker, Mr. Chairman, I 
want to present for your consideration a change which we want in 
the bill. I refer to the sentence beginning on line 24, page 4, section 
6, “ The herein provided for community center meetings and activi¬ 
ties shall be open and available in the discretion of the executive 
secretary for adult persons residing in the community.” That sen¬ 
tence has been understood to limit the power of the adults in relation 
to the activities of the young people. I do not really think that it 
does. I simply meant that the executive secretary would act as their 
agent; but we do not want anything in the bill which even looks as 
if it were undemocratic or which possibly might operate against 
democracy in the community center, so that we advocate that that 
sentence be cut out. 

Mr. Chairman, the three States which have the longest experience 
under a like provision to the provisions in the bill are Wisconsin, 
California, and Indiana. They have had, each of them, a bill which 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 27 


makes it mandatory on the school boards to open the school build¬ 
ings to a neighborhood organization—a nonexclusive neighborhood 
organization; that is, one open to all the citizens in the school dis¬ 
trict—and so I should like to present Mrs. La Follette, from Wiscon¬ 
sin, to speak about the operation of the law of Wisconsin. [Ap¬ 
plause.] 


STATEMENT OF MRS. ROBERT M. LA FOLLETTE. 

Mrs. La Follette. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, 

I feel that I could not in any way, if I had all the time there was, 
add to the-argument that Miss Wilson has made for the more demo¬ 
cratic use of the schools, but if I can in five minutes testify to the 
success of the movement in Wisconsin, I am very glad indeed of the 
opportunity to promote this cause in which I so thoroughly believe. 
The movement in Wisconsin had its origin in our efforts to make our 
State more democratic, even to the extent of the diffusion of knowl¬ 
edge to all the people. A trained observer said of the University of 
Wisconsin that it offered to teach anybody anything anywhere, and 
it is true that through our extension work the university, which 
formerly carried on its work simply as a course of lectures in the 
more populous centers, has extended through exhibits, through lec¬ 
tures, and through bulletins, and through the living teachers, and 
through moving pictures—through all these agencies the university 
is now reaching out and has extended its work to the most remote 
rural centers, offering the people, according to their capacity and 
their needs, this opportunity to gather up the useful knowledge that 
is obtained through the investigation and research of the university. 

This larger extension work of our university naturally led to a 
greater demand for the use of the schools. Up to that time the use 
had been rather desultory, and there was no well-defined principle as 
to their use, and naturally some questions arose as to what constituted 
the proper use of the public school; so that in 1911 a law was passed 
which made it mandatory that the use of the schools should be 
granted to associations of citizens, nonpartisan, nonsectarian, non¬ 
exclusive, for the discussion of public questions, and also for such 
social and recreational purposes as were consistent with the use of 
the schools for school purposes. 

In 1914, which is the latest report I have as to the facts, there were 
in Wisconsin 70 towns and cities using the public schools as polling 
places—I should like to dwell upon that but I have not the time, and 
upon the reaction upon the citizenship—there had been held 20,000 
different assemblies in all places by the people, and there were some¬ 
thing like 200,000 men and women engaged in the social-center work. 

I would not like to have anyone think that I am representing that 
the people of Wisconsin are really using their schoolhouses to the 
large extent that they should be used, but I do say, and I say it as a 
conservative statement, that the uses of schoolhouses have passed 
beyond the experimental stage, and that it has demonstrated the 
benefit of the use of the schools for a large variety of community 
purposes, for lectures, for debates, for musical and neighborhood 
dramatic entertainments, and also as centers of library distribution, 
and even as centers of labor exchange. Our schools have been used 
for that purpose. 


28 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Lloyd. Does your law go far enough to allow you to use the 
schools for recreation purposes? 

Mrs. La Follette. Yes, sir; that is one of the features; and it 
should be noted that there is no uniform use of the school, but there 
will be a tendency on the part of one community to use it more for 
one purpose than for another. That is left to the people and to the 
growth of the idea, and it is the right principle, fundamentally. 

Perhaps the one fact that will contribute most to the discussion 
here this morning is that none of the dangers that are anticipated 
here to-day, on the part of the committee and the public, have oc¬ 
curred in Wisconsin. The condition of the public schools has been 
just exactly, since they have been used for community purposes, as 
safe and well guarded and well protected as it is for school purposes, 
and so, while sometimes there have been some differences of opinion 
as to what questions should be discussed, still, on the whole, the whole 
question being left to the people, and the law settling the fact that 
the people do have the use of the schools, as a rule the people settle 
all of these problems for themselves. 

Mr. Lloyd. Are the school buildings used on Sunday ? 

Mrs. La Follette. That question has never arisen as a matter of 
discussion. They are used if the people want to use them, and there 
is no trouble about it. I could not help thinking, when this question 
was being discussed this morning, that it is perhaps extraordinary 
that there has not been a controversial speech. It has simply been 
settled by each community according to its views, and of course 
when the school is used for some thing it is used in different ways, 
according to the specific views of the communities. 

I offer to the committee here a series of pictures that were very 
largely taken in Wisconsin and which were distributed throughout 
Wisconsin as suggestions of what community centers can be. What 
is being done in one community is of course helpful in another 
community, and, of course, the idea is that meeting in the school- 
houses the people meet on democratic ground. But I do not need to 
remind this committee that it has been very well said that a 
democracy is net perhaps so much a form of government as it is an 
attitude of mind, and it seems to me that this use of the community 
centers is the right way to cultivate the right attitude of mind, where 
our children meet on an equal footing; and it seems to me that the 
public schools, whatever their faults, are the great, if you will, basis 
of democracy, and where our children meet on a common footing 
there it is quite natural for the parents to meet on a common footing 
and for the community to come together and to discuss and work 
out their common problems. 

Mr. Tinkham. In Wisconsin who has the regulation of the hours 
and the conduct? 

Mrs. La Follette. The law gives the power to an association of 
citizens. The law provides how the associations shall be organized; 
but as I understand it, it has never been necessary to call into exer¬ 
cise that power of the law, because it being understood that the 
community had the use of the school buildings it has never been 
questioned, and so the school board has the control usually. 

Mr. Tinkham. That is, that regulation is mechanical, through the 
school board? 

Mrs. La Follette. Yes. 




COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 29 

Mr. Tinkham. Then, they regulate the use of the buildings for 
the lectures? 

Mrs. La Follette. Yes; but of course the question is settled 
through the law so that there is no controversy as to whether it shall 
be allowed or not allowed. The question was raised whether that 
should be discussed, but even that was not taken to the courts, but it 
was settled in the communities. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is your law somewhat similar to this proposed law? 

Mrs. La Follette. I have not made a study of the proposed law, 
but I think the principle of this proposed law is the same; but our 
law, of course, applies to the whole (State, and is framed on general 
terms, and I have stated them as well as I could, and I know that I 
could read to you from what has been said by the president of our 
university and our State superintendent of public instruction and 
our high authorities, and I think the people of Wisconsin them¬ 
selves, if they could all be here and testify, would say that this was 
a great opportunity not only for the District of Columbia but for 
the United States, because of course Washington—and I would like 
to emphasize that point which Miss Wilson made—being the Capital, 
any movement started here under the auspices of the bureau of edu¬ 
cation is from that mere fact a highly intelligent movement that is 
going to be of very great benefit to the whole country as an example; 
and I trust that your committee will feel that you have a great 
opportunity in reporting this bill not only to benefit the District of 
Columbia but to demonstrate and benefit the whole United States. 
I thank you. [Applause.] 

Miss Wilson. May I introduce Judge Raker ? He is qualified to 
tell us what has happened in California since the passage of the bill. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN E. RAKER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. 

Mr. Raker. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I 
want to say that this is a pleasure beyond words that I can gather to 
express, and it is a great satisfaction to give a few feeble remarks 
upon a bill having the purposes of the present bill before the com¬ 
mittee. 

So that it will not be taken out of my time, without reading it now, 
1 should like to present and have printed in the record a copy of the 
California law on this subject. 

Mr. Lloyd. We shall be very glad to have it, Judge. 

Mr. Raker. There are some features of this law I would like par¬ 
ticularly to call the attention of the committee to, but I know the 
press of business, and the time would not be enough to give me an 
opportunity to do so, and therefore I will not now read it, as I 
possibly otherwise would do. 

I should be ungrateful to my State and to my country, viewing 
life as I do, and with the experience I have had, knowing that this 
bill that is now before the committee is but a reviving of what 
occurred in this country from its inception and what has made it wliat 
it is, as I read the history of the other States and as I know for 
the last 40 years in my own, if I did not acknowledge that it has 
been the schoolhouse, used for the purposes provided for in this bill, 
that has given many a young man and many a young women an 


30 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

opportunity for education arid a start in life that they otherwise 
would not have had. It brings together not only the younger people 
but the graduates of our best institutions who are in the communities 
where these centers are. It brings together the doctor and the 
lawyer and the farmer and the blacksmith and all who participate 
and take that opportunity of giving their experience and expressing 
their ideas before a community gathering of this kind as they would 
in no other place. 

It has been my observation that men will there unlock their inner 
conscience and give the benefit of their knowledge to the community 
in which they live. I say, from my personal observation, that in 
school gatherings, at the spelling class and the debating society and 
the gatherings of those of all classes, there as in no other place it has 
appeared to me that people really poured forth the knowledge and 
experience they had gathered for the benefit and the everlasting 
credit of the community in which they live, and to the benefit of 
the younger men and women of the community. Your jewels hidden 
may as well be lost; and the man with knowledge may as well have 
none unless he has some opportunity to practice it. Knowledge in 
solitude amounts to nothing without letting someone else know of 
it. It is dead and useless. California has a similar law that was 
brought about not so much as an absolute necessity, but to place it 
upon a basis so that no trustee could say “ no ” to the community de¬ 
siring to use the schoolhouse for a public forum. 

They generally permitted it to be used at any time when not 
used for school purposes; that is, when school was actually being 
conducted; but it is natural for some—I ought not to say selfish 
interests, but they are—when there are other halls and buildings in 
the town, to say, “ Why, you ought not to have your entertainment— 
you ought not to have your proceedings in the public-school build¬ 
ing,” and thereby some will complain, and it creates a little objection. 
But away down deep there can not be any valid objection, as it ap¬ 
pears to me, to using our public-school buildings as open places for 
discussion of all subjects that may be discussed in any hall or in any 
place in the country, to the end that we may better ourselves; we 
may assist in giving others the benefit of what we may have gathered 
from many years of experience; and on the other hand, more valu¬ 
able than all, is the experience, the right knowledge, of those who 
have no other time to give it and no other place than places of this 
kind. 

Mr. Lloyd. Have you had any trouble about this use of the schools 
on Sunday? 

Mr. Baker. No; we do not have any trouble of that kind. It 
takes care of itself; and I want to say to you, Mr. Chairman, in 
answer to that question, that God Almighty never made a better 
place than the public school to bring all people together, even on 
Sunday [applause], because some may go to some other places, may 
be doing some other things, and there is plenty of room for us all, 
there is plenty of time; and from personal observation and from 
what I can see I can not conceive how anyone can make a valid 
objection to using a public-schoolhouse, paid for by the taxes of the 
entire community, for the purpose of the discussion of questions as 
presented in our State. Supervisional, recreational activities, edu- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


31 


cational, political, and economic, artistic and moral interests are 
those that are promoted under our law. 

I want to thank you, and I trust that this bill may be reported 
out. 

Miss Wilson. Thank you, sir. [Applause.] 

The California law referred to by Mr. Raker, is as follows: 

Chapter 395.—Ail act providing for the free use of all public-school houses and 
property and to establish a civic center at each and every public-school house 
in the State of California, and to provide for the maintenance, conduct, and 
management of the same. (Approved June G, 1913. In effect Aug. 10, 1913.) 
The people of the State of California do enact as follows: 

Section 1 . There is hereby established a civic center at each and every public- 
school house within the State of California, where the citizens of the respective 
public-school districts within the said State of California may engage in super¬ 
vised recreational activities, and where they may meet and discuss, from time 
to time, as they may desire, any and all subjects and questions which, in their 
judgment, may appertain to the educational, political, economic, artistic, and 
moral interests of the citizens of the respective communities in which they may 
reside: Provided , That such use of said public-school house and grounds for 
said meetings shall in no wise interfere with such use and occupancy of said 
pul)!h-school house and grounds as is now, or hereafter may be required for 
the purposes of said public schools of the State of California. 

Sec. 2. Lighting, heating, janitor service, and the services of a special super¬ 
vising oflicer when needed, in connection with such use of public-school build¬ 
ings and grounds as set forth in section 1 of this act, shall be provided for out 
of the county or special school funds of the respective school districts in the 
same manner and by the same authority as such smilar services are now pro¬ 
vided for. Such use of the said school houses, in case of entertainments where 
an admission fee is charged, a charge may be made for the use of said school- 
houses, property, and grounds. 

Sec. 3. The management, direction, and control of said civic center shall be 
vested in the board of trustees or board of education of the school district. 
Said board of trustees or board of education of the school shall make all needful 
rules and regulations for conducting said civic-center meetings and for such 
recreational activities as are provided for in section 1 of this act; and said 
board of trustees or board of education may appoint a special supervising 
officer who shall have charge of the grounds, preserve order, protect the school 
property, and do all things necessary in the capacity of a peace officer to 
carry out the provisions and the intents and purposes of this act. (California 
Statutes and amendments to the Codes, 1913. Pp. 853 and 854.) 

Miss Wilson. I should like now to ask Mrs. Miller, from Indiana, 
to speak. She is the wife of the judge of the juvenile court at South 
Bend, Ind. Indiana is a State whose law also embodies the principle 
that the schools belong to the whole citizenship. [Applause.] 

STATEMENT OF MRS. MILLER. 

Mrs. Miller. As Miss Wilson has said, I am the wife of the 
judge of the juvenile court at South Bend, Ind., and, therefore, I 
am greatly interested in the benefits that have been derived from 
the playground and the community-center work. We are only 2 
years old in the community-center work, but, if you people are 
familiar with the spirit of South Bend, its enthusiasm, its vim, and 
its industry, you know we have had a good deal of experience in 
two years’ time. And, whether it is true or not, we boast of being 
the leading community center in the State of Indiana. We find 
that the fears which are entertained here in Washington are identi¬ 
cal with the fears that were entertained in South Bend, and those 
fears did not materialize in actual practice. We anticipated every- 


32 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

thing. There were those among us—of the most conservative, possi¬ 
bly—who feared everything that might be feared from what we 
call an opportunity for a general expression from the community as 
to the desires in the community. We find that our schoolhouses have 
not been abused, and that the proprietary interest, which the people 
of the community feel, has led them to do better by those school 
buildings than had been done previously. 

In our community center we take more interest really in the 
recreation phase of it. The large industrial population which we 
have, and the very cosmopolitan population which we have, makes 
that thing necessary. South Bend provides education, and it pro¬ 
vides industry and labor for the most of our people, but it has never 
taken as much care of that one natural demand or play plea as it 
should have; and I believe most cities overlook that. I believe 
that we forget that there is a natural desire to play, and especially 
is that true of children; and we are making a great deal, in that 
community-center work, of the opportunities for those people who 
toil six days in the week and who do not have the means with which 
to hire independent halls and to give themselves the independent op¬ 
portunities to have the recreation, the play, and the educational ad¬ 
vantages that the community centers afford. 

Our present mayor said that if he was elected the one thing he 
would do was he would comply with the wishes as expressed by the 
general public. It gives them invaluable opportunity, having the 
mayor go about to these community centers w T here people are asso¬ 
ciated with their own kind and kin, and where they are free to speak, 
whereas if they were assembled in a central hall in the city where 
those that they consider are more influential would meet with them 
and where they would feel that they could not compare favorably 
with those people, they would not be able to express themselves; but 
when they are in their own home communities as they are in their 
own homes the}' do express themselves; and before a tract of land is 
purchased in South Bend at this time for a park or anything of the 
kind the mayor does ask the public and it does express itself through 
community centers as to the wish for the ownership of the particular 
property, and the taxpayers therefore are represented and their de¬ 
sires can be expressed through the mayor or any other of our offi¬ 
cials. 

The law originally provided that the bo.ard of health or some other 
board should provide for these centers, but it was placed in the hands 
of the school board under the term of its being for general educa¬ 
tion, and so the school board at the present time provides the funds 
and makes these contributions toward it. I am much obliged to you. 
[Applause.] 

Miss Wilson. Mrs. Miller is a wonderful woman. She stayed 
within her five minutes. 

Now, I should like to introduce the greatest person in the Grover 
Cleveland neighborhood; the greatest because the servant of all, and 
that is Miss Norton. [Applause.] 

STATEMENT OF MISS NORTON. 

Miss Norton. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I 
come to you partly because I have been a teacher in the Grover Cleve¬ 
land School. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 33 

For the last three years, and also because I have lived in the neigh¬ 
borhood of the school for 10 years; and so I come not as a teacher 
but as a representative of my neighbors, 215 of whom have asked for 
the use of the buildings for use on Sunday, and for the children’s 
meetings, and the older boys and girls on the nights throughout the 
week. 

k irst of all I would like, if you will let me, to tell you why 1 be¬ 
came interested first in the night work of the schools, and then I 
think you will see the point of the forum in our neighborhood. 
There was what was known in our neighborhood as a “ gang ” of 
boys from 16 to 21 } 7 ears old—and I think you can sympathize with 
boys in a crowded community in the city who have nothing to do in 
their evenings—and I happened to have a brother who was a member 
of that gang. These boys, some of them, were arrested one night for 
standing on the street corner, and when we asked what they had done, 
the captain of the precinct said they were blocking the sidewalk; 
but the thing that made me wonder was where else could they go 
to get together than on the street corners. These were boys who were 
pupils in the schools, high-school boys, and some working boys, and 
some went to the parochial schools right near. So we went to the 
board of education, and the superintendent of the board of education 
granted us permission to use the school one night a week for those 
boys; and the captain of the precinct said not long after that the 
complaint book in that precinct had been abolished; they did not 
need it any longer. 

Since that time we have organized girls’ clubs and organized a 
committee on sewing work and we have our dramatic club and we 
have our stage, and this last winter we had a dancing club of over 
100 members, and they had to pay a small amount of dues, 5 cents, 
to buy records and other things that they have to have to keep the 
club going. All those things were beautiful, and after the thing was 
abolished there were difficulties. Through the first two winters we 
went into the building without any heat, and there was no money for 
a janitor, and they could not ask the janitor to come there, and take 
his time; so we went and wore our coats and wished we might be able 
to play basket ball with the boys, but they would not let us; and so 
the work has gone on for three years. 

The parents Avere interested; and to show that the work was bene¬ 
ficial, I would like to show you some pictures of an Indian operetta 
that we ga\ T e that was a real native affair. The Indian authorities 
helped us to get it up, they gave us the historical background, and 
everybody helped. 

(Miss Norton here exhibited to the committee the pictures re¬ 
ferred to.) 

The costumes Avere made by the boys’ mothers. 

We felt that this was of vital interest to the adults. They them¬ 
selves had talked with us and wished that they might have an or- 
ganizaion. We felt just a little backward in going around organiz¬ 
ing for grown folks. We had found no difficulty at all in taking 
care of the young people. It was talked about for quite a while as 
to how they could get together and get organized, but it was not 
decided until Mr. E. J. Ward, of the bureau of education, came to 
town, and I met him and told him about the situation we were in 

38523—16-3 


34 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

and he said that he would go and look into affairs in all the neigh¬ 
borhoods, and he volunteered his time to go and see, so that he would 
know what kind of meeting we wanted; and the men and women 
that night said they wanted a forum, because, after hearing the idea 
of the forum explained, they decided they did not want anything 
as narrow as a citizens’ association, but wanted a forum for the men, 
and we were given permission to use the building two Sunday after¬ 
noons, and after that the board did not give permission, I think, 
possibly because it was the first request that had come to do a thing 
like that on Sunday, and they were not quite ready to make up their 
minds. The meetings have been going on in the public library since. 

There are three reasons why an appropriation is necessary for 
this work. As you know, the appropriation for the community 
center in this bill is larger than that for the forum, because there 
are only 10 forums to meet probably once a week, whereas three of 
those buildings may be opened six nights a week, and that carries a 
larger appropriation. First of all, our superintendent, Mr. Thurs¬ 
ton, who has commended the work there, has said in his report to 
the commisisoners that this work should go on upon a public basis 
and by public appropriations, and I myself feel that it can only be 
carried on in the right way when there are appropriations for it. 
We have playgrounds for the younger children, but we have abso¬ 
lutely nothing for the older boys and girls in the crowded portions 
of the city, and it is a great need. More than that, the other pro¬ 
gressive cities are doing fine things along this line. The city of 
Chicago has spent on the average $1,000,000 for the past 20 years 
in recreational activities in communities. 

This amount has been large because they have constructed recrea¬ 
tional buildings. That would not have been such an expensive 
proposition if the board of education had not refused to give them the 
use of buildings. They have lately appropriated $40,000 for use 
for their school fund in Chicago. 

The city of New York has lately appropriated $240,000 for the 
use of its school buildings for community centers. 

Then I have a selfish reason why I feel favorably toward the bill, 
and that is this: I am not a charity worker. I am a public-school 
teacher, appointed by the board of education and paid by the people’s 
money, and I did not go into the night work because I was a charity 
worker, I went to see of what was’said was true, that it did solve the 
situation in cities. It does. I know it. I have kept in the first 
grade on $70 a month. I do not want the higher grade. I want to 
do this work, because I feel that it is valuable, and because I feel 
the night work does pay; so that I have faith in the work and faith 
in you in God’s truth and help, and I ask yours. [Applause.] 

Miss Wilson. I want to ask Dr. Walker to speak on the Sunday 
question. I do not really believe it is your buisness or the business 
of Congress to decide the question of the Sunday use of these schools, 
but the question has come up. 

STATEMENT OF DR. WALKER. 

Dr. Walker. Miss Wilson has kindly prescribed my talk, that it 
shall be in regard to the matter of Sunday, and I think that is very 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 35 


wise, although there are some self-evident propositions that I would 
not like to take your time to consider. 

First of all, should the schoolhouses that were built by the people 
and maintained by the people be used for the instruction of us older 
children when they are not being used for the instruction of the 
young? It is not worth while to argue that question. 

Then the second question that comes up in regard to this bill is, 
should we older children be kept comfortable while we are having 
our lessons, by having janitor service, and so on? If so, there should 
be an appropriation made for that purpose, assuming that we have a 
right to use. 

But now we come to the point upon which I was requested to 
speak. I will not insult your patriotism, gentlemen of the committee, 
by arguing that you should accept a bill or reject a bill upon the 
premise of Sunday afternoon usage. The very first amendment to 
our Constitution covered that ground; and if you, having that bill 
before you now, would report it favorably to the House of Repre- 
sentatives because it gives an opportunity for Sunday use, or using 
Sunday afternoon for these purposes; or if. on the other hand, yon 
would reject the bill and report it unfavorably to the House because 
of that clause, you are taking up a matter that is none of your busi¬ 
ness, speaking plainly. 

Mr. Tinkham. I think you are right. 

Dr. Walker. You have nothing to do with that whatever. But 
for those gentlemen who have exercised themselves so violently 
against this Sunday evening service, 1 would make a few suggestions. 
This question of what men should do or should not do on what we 
popularly call the Sabbath is a question as old as the present dispen¬ 
sation. There was a little argument held down in Judea about that. 
The followers of the Master got hungry, and they plucked some corn; 
and some there who thought they were very much better than this 
Nazarene said to him that he must be a sinner or his followers would 
not thus break the Sabbath, and he took occasion there to ask a very 
pertinent question—and I will ask that question now to anybody 
whom it may concern: “ Is it lawful to do right, to do good, on the 
Sabbath Day, or is it lawful to do evil on the Sabbath Cav? ” And 
then I would reiterate an incisive statement made by the Master on 
that occasion: He said the Sabbath was made for man, and not man 
for the Sabbath. I am not making that argument to the committee, 
because they do not need that argument at all. but I am suggesting 
it to those who have so violently opposed our use of the forum on 
Sunday afternoon. 

Gentlemen of the committee, I heard it hinted here that there 
might be some objection because of making a political speech; that 
somebody would be there on Sunday evening making a political 
speech before the forum. I will just humbly submit that I would 
rather hear one of you gentlemen who is competent to instruct the 
people politically, who is an expert in that matter, make a political 
speech on Sunday evening than to hear a clerical gentleman make a 
political speech in the pulpit on Sunday morning. [Applause ] 

Not long' ago a clerical gentleman in your sunny State [address¬ 
ing Mr. Raker] took for a text: “ Must the Chinese go ? ” 

Mr. Raker. On Sunday as well as any other day. 


36 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Dr. Walker. And he occupied the time when he should have been 
talking about spiritual matters with that matter. I submit I would 
rather hear those things spoken of from the forum in the afternoon 
than to hear them from the pulpit on Sunday morning, and I insist 
that the question should be left to the people entirely. The funda¬ 
mental principle of our liberty is religious liberty, as a corner stone 
of our institutions, and the very moment you refuse to leave it to 
the people, whether it be the forum in a given neighborhood of the 
citv or the whole people at large, as to what they shall do or shall 
not do on the Sunday, you encroach upon our religious liberties. 

Mr. Focht. I judge from your observations that you believe that 
a Congressman delivering a political speech on Sunday evening 
might have his points in better adjustment than the preacher de¬ 
livering a political speech in his pulpit on Sunday morning; but let 
me ask you further. Do you think that in either case either the 
preacher or the Member of Congress could convince you against 
your present political convictions? 

Dr. Walker. No, sir. I want to be instructed on that or any other 
subject, but I want the man who undertakes to instruct me to be com¬ 
petent, and I think you gentlemen, Members of Congress, are much 
better prepared to do that than the preachers. 

Mr. Focht. We do not deny it. [Applause.] 

Miss Wilson. I would like to ask Mr. Jackson H. Ralston to speak 
four or five minutes. 

i STATEMENT OF JACKSON H. RALSTON, ESQ. 

Mr. Ralston. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I 
find myself very much interested in this subject from a general and 
public and, I think, a disinterested point of view. We have in the 
District of Columbia millions of dollars invested in school buildings. 
That property is used for a small percentage of the time. Now, we 
speak often of wastefulness in mechanics, and we speak of wasteful¬ 
ness in education, in government, in not getting the fullest return 
for our money. When we have an investment of millions of dollars, 
an investment designed for the purpose of the education of the peo¬ 
ple—and education knows no limit of age, I am glad to believe— 
when we find an investment of that kind not put to its most pro¬ 
ductive uses, why, I think from the standpoint of those interested in 
public affairs and property we have a just right of complaint. The 
object, or one of the great objects, of this bill, as I understand, is to 
make dead property useful, to put that dead property to its highest 
use, and I find myself unable to appreciate any argument which will 
run dead against the fullest beneficial use of the governmental prop¬ 
erty for the purpose for which it is intended. 

Some doubt is expressed as to whether the property will be per¬ 
haps rightfully used. I do not know. I think that in all matters of 
taste—and largely the objections which will be raised to this bill are 
from the standpoint of taste—we may trust well to the general pub¬ 
lic. If anything materially outrage the best taste of the people in 
the management of these affairs it will speedily be stamped upon, if 
you please; speedily be stopped. We trust the taste of the people 
in a thousand different ways. Why not trust them in this particular 
way ? [Applause.] 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 37 

Some allusion has been made to the fact that an objection has been 
raised to the iise of this property on Sunday. I think that that 
ignores the fact that even the discussion of political questions, car¬ 
ried to its ultimate, involves a discussion of matters of essential right 
and wrong, and if it be more moral and more appropriate to discuss 
matters of right and wrong on one day rather than another, certainly 
it should be most appropriate to discuss political questions, which 
have in the ultimate a basis of right and wrong, on that day rather 
than on any other. So my proposition would be that if we discuss 
political questions which ought to be discussed, and upon the highest 
ethical basis, even, if you please, on the floors of Congress, if we are 
to discuss political questions upon that basis and educate our people 
to the fullest democratic development, then by all means let us be at 
entire and complete liberty to use the schools, if need be, for that 
kind of discussion on the Sabbath as w T ell as on any other day. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Following your line of thought, why would it not 
be better, then, to keep our courts of justice open on Sunday, keep 
the legislature going on Sunday, and all other institutions of that 
kind operating on Sunday? 

Mr. Ralston. I did not discuss the religious reason which is ad¬ 
vanced, because I do not think it is necessary to discuss that; but we 
do not keep our courts open, aside from the religious reason, because 
we recognize the essential necessity of a day of rest. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Ought not that to apply to the employees of school 
buildings just as much as it should to other employees? 

Mr. Ralston. If the employees are overworked; but that is a 
question of detail which may be arranged. I will allude to the fact, 
by way of illustration, that I understand the rule in France to be at 
the present time that employees must have one day of rest in seven; 
it may be Sunday; it may be some other day; but there, laying aside 
the religious side of it entirely, the physical side is recognized; and 
I should assume that in any arrangement which might be made by 
the board of education the physical side should at least not be lost 
sight of. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And that the religious side should be lost sight of ? 

Mr. Ralston. Not necessarily. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I think you quoted France there. 

Mr. Ralston. Oh, we are getting into a discussion that is very far, 
it seems to me, from this particular occasion. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Well, end it right here. 

Mr. Ralston. But, Mr. Congressman, if you carefully abstained 
from holding committee meetings on Sunday—there are suspicions 
that committee meetings have been held on Sunday even by Con¬ 
gressmen. 

Mr. Ragsdale. If you will permit me, speaking for myself, I will 
say that I never attended a committee meeting of Congress on 
Sunday. 

Mr. Vinson. There are no committee meetings on Sunday, but 
there are other gatherings, sometimes, in committee rooms. 

Mr. Ralston. They are quite indistinguishable, in point of fact; 
and if we attempted to follow very closely the rule of Sunday observ¬ 
ance we would be compelled to have our wives desist from the neces¬ 
sary operations of cooking and serving the table and taking care of 
the house. 




38 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Lloyd. You did not intend, did you, to leave the impression 
that it was the custom of Congress to have committee meetings on 
Sunday? 

Mr. Ralston. Oh, by no means. I assume that it is a condition 
which, if it arises at all, arises from necessity. 

Mr. Lloyd. Did it ever occur? 

Mr. Ralston. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Will you give me an instance of it ? 

Mr. Tinkham. I have been here a number of years and never heard 
of such a thing occurring. 

Mr. Ralston. I think it will be admitted that Sunday meetings of 
Congress have been held, and I think that certainly involves the 
principle quite as much as a committee meeting could possibly do. 

Mr. Lloyd. The Sunday meetings of Congress which are held are 
memorial days. 

Mr. Ragsdale. No Sunday meetings are held except by way of 
memorials. 

Mr. Lloyd. They are held as a matter of necessity. 

Mr. Ralston. Precisely: that was my observation. 

Miss Wilson. I would like to call on Mr. Watrous to address you 
next. 


STATEMENT OF MR. RICHARD B. WATROUS. 

Mr. Watrous. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, it is in a double 
capacity I am glad to appear for a few minutes—first, as a resident 
and citizen of Washington, and, second, as the secretary of the 
American Civic Association, which in response to a very great call 
from all over this country for information as to the community-center 
idea has made it one of the subjects of special attention, and at its 
last convention in this city, last December, devoted one entire session 
to it. with Miss Wilson, who gave such a clear statement of the idea 
of the community center this morning, as presiding officer, and I beg 
to submit for your consideration an introductory statement she made 
at that time as throwing some light on the subject. Miss Wilson is 
now the chairman of the committee on community centers of the 
American Civic Association. 

My purpose in appearing, gentlemen, is to impress upon you, if I 
may, the opportunity that now rests upon you through Congress to 
send out the word to the entire United States that the Congress hag 
considered this question of a larger use of the schools and believes 
in it, and we hope you will report the bill favorably, and that it 
will pass, and in that way it will be recommended as a precedent 
for all of the cities and towns of all of this Nation. 

It has been demonstrated in not a small number of instances that 
for several reasons there has been objection by boards of education 
to granting the use of the schools on the request of the people for the 
purposes as indicated in the community-forum idea. It might be 
that such an objection would arise in the District of Columbia. It 
rests with Congress to say just what shall and what shall not be done. 
You have the opportunity to say that in this city, the Nation’s Capi¬ 
tal, the schools erected at the cost of millions of dollars shall be 
available to the people all of the time, when such use does not conflict 
with the use for which they were primarily erected, namely, the 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 39 


teaching of the children, for their community usage and discussion, 
and all of the time may take in seven days of the week, and that 
message going out will establish a precedent to the other cities and 
be a splendid precedent, because the people do listen when the 
word conies from Washington that certain things have been done. 

Y ou may lmow that this subject is not a new one, and that it is very 
widespread in its interests and application. I would say to you 
that Some six }^ears ago the then governor of New Jersey, now the 
President of the United States, went to Wisconsin and devoted three 
days, with other advocates of that idea, to discussing it and formu¬ 
lating plans; and from that time progress has been making for the 
larger use of the schools. An impulse was given then. A still 
greater impulse may now be given if the Congress says that the city 
over which it has actual jurisdiction shall use its schools. That 
message going out to the country, it will be a splendid message, and 
means very much for the idea which has been so clearly set before 
you to-day of the larger use as community centers of the public 
schools which are erected by the people on money they have paid. 
I thank you. [Applause.] 

Mr. Mapes. May I ask you one or two questions before you take 
your seat? 

Mr. Watrous. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mapes. Is this bill copied from any State law or modeled 
after any State law? 

Mr. Watrous. I have not had a hand in helping draft the bill. 
I should imagine that some of the best ideas of other bills from other 
States have been adopted. 

Mr. Mapes. You have no information about that? 

Mr. Watrous. I have no information definitely. 

Mr. Mapes. What is the genesis of this proposition; do you know 
that? 

Mr. Watrous. Will you state the question a little more clearly? 

Mr. Mapes. Where did the idea originate, of having these com¬ 
munity centers? 

Mr. Vinson. What is the origin of this kind of legislation? 

Mr. Watrous. I would say that the first application of the idea 
was in Westchester. Is that right, Mr. Ward? 

Mr. Ward. Yes. 

Mr. Lloyd. He means here. Why this proposed change in the 
law? 

Mr. Watrous. Oh, here? I will say that the impression prevails 
that if there has not already been a disposition to decline the use of 
the schools, there might some day arise a condition where the board 
of education might say that the "school buildings were not available 
for this purpose. 

Mr. Mapes. This idea of the school buildings being open on Sunday 
seems to have taken prominent place in the remarks of most of the 
speakers. Was the bill meant primarily to cover that feature? 

Mr. Watrous. I should say not. I should say that it had that in 

mind. . id 

Mr. Mapes. Do you know what the rule is m the other States; 
what is the law in the States that deals with the use of the school- 
houses on Sunday? 


40 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Watrous. I know the rule in California, because Judge Raker 
has stated this afternoon that there is no rule against the use of the 
schools on Sunday. I do not imagine that in Wisconsin, where the 
idea has been given such a good start, there is any objection to the 
use of the school buildings on Sunday. 

Mr. Mapes. Have you any definite idea about that ? 

Mr. Watrous. Mr. Ward, have you any information about that? 

Mr. Mapes. If you do not know, I will not ask you further. 

Mr. Watrous. I do not know. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then the real need in this legislation is not for 
something that has transpired, but for the fear that lest it might 
occur in the District of Columbia ? 

Mr. Watrous. Partly; and partly no, There has been a refusal of 
the use of the schools on Sunday. 

Mr. Ragsdale. One refusal? 

Mr. Watrous. One refusal. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And for that reason you think we ought to set aside 
absolutely the power of the school board over all of the school build¬ 
ings in the District of Columbia and vest it in other authorities, 
for this one refusal of use on Sunday? 

Mr. Watrous. I think Congress, which has jurisdiction over all 
school matters in the District of Columbia, ought to make it clear 
that the schools can be used at all times for adults and children. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And absolutely destroy the right of those who are 
responsible for these structures, who are responsible to Congress for 
their maintenance and protection, so that they may be absolutely 
without any voice in the control and direction of them ? 

Mr. Watrous. I do not see that it takes away their authority, be¬ 
cause you would have to go to them to get them to indicate what 
schools shall be used. 

Mr. Ragsdale. After that is once indicated, then the power vests 
in the forum, and not in the board? It wholly vests in this forum 
board and the school board is immediately deprived absolutely of it? 

Mr. Watrous. It goes right back to the place where it belongs, 
with the people. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But it does not go to the people, but to a forum. 

Mr. Watrous. Well, the forum is composed of the people. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you think necessarily all of the people would be¬ 
long to the forum ? In other words, there might be a thousand peo¬ 
ple out of whom 20 would belong to the forum, and the other 980 
of them would be denied any right; because the power of control is 
taken from the school board, and the power immediately vests in those 
20, under this legislation. 

Mr. Watrous. The others can go. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I know they can, but I ask you if that is one of the 
things that might obtain. 

Mr. Watrous. I do not anticipate it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I did not ask you if you did. I asked you if it 
might not obtain ? 

Mr. Watrous. It might. 

Mr. Ragsdale. All right. 

Mr. Mapes. As one of the proponents of the bill, would you be 
satisfied with it if it was passed excepting the use of the buildings on 
Sundays ? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 41 

Mr. Watrous. I should think that would be unfortunate. I wel¬ 
come the opportunity to go to church very regularly, I think as a 
rule twice on Sunday. 1 would welcome the opportunity to practice 
what I consider an observation of Sunday as a day of rest, to par* 
ticipate in forums as proposed by this bill. 

Miss Wilson. I should like to ask Mr. Allen Davis, principal of 
the Business High School, to speak. 

STATEMENT OF MR. ALLEN DAVIS. 

Mr. Davis. Mr. Chairman, I on this occasion perhaps may stand 
as an innocent bystander who has been drawn into a very interesting 
discussion, because in the beginning Miss Fairley asked me to preside 
at her initial meeting as a representative of the citizens’ association. 
Out, however, of my acquaintance with the forum I want to empha¬ 
size a few points which I deem important for this body; and, first, 
that the forum and the social activities are a natural development. 
They are not forced. They came about from a free discussion of 
the citizens of the Grover Cleveland community. On organization 
night the intention was, I believe, to organize another citizens’ asso¬ 
ciation, but it was found that that would interfere with the work 
already in existence, and the citizens of that body, after a spirited 
and yet exhaustive discussion, decided to organize a community 
center combined with the forum; and the point I want to make is 
this: That that is entirely in line with the modern trend of educa¬ 
tional development all over this country. Miss Fairley and Miss 
Norton are in advance of Washington procedure, but they are far 
behind procedure in many of our sister cities. This is not an experi¬ 
ment except in our own city. It has been practiced and established, 
and it is worth while. 

Secondly, I want to except to some of the objections that have been 
raised and will be raised that these buildings will not be protected; 
that they will be taken from under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of 
Education. On the contrary, the present bill gives better protection 
to the buildings than they have had under any bill or any procedure 
that provides for night meetings, for this reason: The present bill 
makes it imperative that the jurisdiction of the building should 
remain where? With the responsible head; the principal or some 
one to whom he delegates it—probably a member of his staff. The 
present bill provides that there shall be adequate paid service for 
care and assistance, and the present bill, more completely than any 
bill governing night-school service, provides for the adequate and 
complete service of the janitor and janitor service. You may say 
that the forum would control these buildings. With regard to mat¬ 
ters of study, with regard to literary exercises, or otherwise, that is 
true; but, mark you, that the health rules will prevail and the rules 
of the board of education governing these buildings in a material 
way will prevail; they can not be superseded by a forum which acts 
within their jurisdiction, so that I see no objection whatever on the 
ground of protection of the buildings. It seems to me that the 
building protection is ample, that the officers are provided, as never 
before, and that this bill is to be commended as a material as well as 
an educational step in advance. 


42 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

If I may be so bold, listening to this discussion here, may I cite 
something that seems perhaps fair to say? I believe that the differ¬ 
ence of opinion on this occasion is not in any sense a difference of in¬ 
dividuals, but it is a difference of environment and viewpoint. We 
have in all cases the inevitable conflict of democracy with monarchy 
with aristocracy, however you look at it. In this question we have 
Miss Fairley and Miss Norton close to the people, developing a demo¬ 
cratic system of government, reaching out into the homes, doing a 
great deal for their little communities, developing pretty nearly an 
ideal city democracy on a small scale; and on the other hand we have 
the board of education, made up of men and of women of unim¬ 
peachable character, but by their very environment and by all their 
responsibilities, intrusted with the work of directing and guiding 
these schools, and I think it is very unfortunate that these two bodies 
have not seen that there is really no conflict here, that the duty of the 
board of education is to direct the children and the schools, but that 
when the board of education deals with adults, then it is merely a 
material and not a supervisory affair. In other words, the board of 
education will not be responsible for what is said in a public forum; 
it will not be responsible for what is said by the adults in a social 
settlement meeting. It will be responsible, and will have control 
through its secretaries and its educators, for the moral and the educa¬ 
tional side of the children. I believe that Mr. Lincoln said that no 
man is good enough to control the body of another. I think we might 
paraphrase that by saying that no board of education and no set of 
men, however eminent, however educated, is able to control the con¬ 
science of the adult community. [Applause.] 

Miss Wilson. Mr. Lloyd, may I turn in a statement drawn up 
representing the views of the committee representing the forum that 
has already been organized, which will give the full histor}^ of the 
start of the movement here in the District of Columbia ? 

Mr. Lloyd. We would be very glad to have that; and will you put 
that in the record as a part of your hearing? 

Miss Wilson. All right. Now, I should like to ask Mr. E. J. 
Ward, who started the whole movement, which is now called the 
community center movement, to speak to you. He does not claim 
to have started a new idea—that was in the town meeting—but he 
did start the movement in Rochester, and I am sure that the audience 
and the committee would like to hear from Mr. E. J. Ward. 

STATEMENT OF MR. E. J. WARD. 

Mr. Ward. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the point of essential 
importance, because it is the point of danger and misunderstanding, 
is in the use of the buildings as a center of community assembly in 
contrast with the use of the building as a center of any kind of dis¬ 
unity assembling. To put it in the phrase of an editorial in the New 
York Sun of day before yesterday, public school buildings belong 
to the public, and should not be used for any faction whatever. As 
to the whole idea of the community center, in so far as the experience 
is concerned which began in Rochester in 1907 and continued there 
through three years until 1910, at which time the board of educa¬ 
tion had its character so changed that it came to refuse to recognize 
any authority in the citizenship regarding the meetings in the build- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 43 

ing, and then coming over into Wisconsin for five years, in Cali¬ 
fornia for five years, and then in Indiana and the other States, the 
essential point is the point that has been brought up here, and the 
point of most important misunderstand, if I may say it, is the idea 
that the school building may be turned over to a factional or sec¬ 
tarian or any other kind of a private-interest group. 

The natural group in society, which is a group which is out for 
some specific thing, the organization of the public body, the creation 
of a community organization whose object is public discussion with¬ 
out the pushing forward of any private interest, must be artificially 
created. Under the present law which obtains in the District of 
Columbia and which existed in Wisconsin prior to the development 
of the principle about which Mrs. La Follette spoke, the law there 
written in 1910, passed by the legislature of 1910 and 1911, declaring 
that where the citizenship of any local public school and district is 
organized on a basis of inclusion of the whole community—that is, 
if a person resides in the district, an adult person, he is a member by 
virtue of his presence there, which is the basis of voting membership 
now, just as some basis of discussion, membership, or parliamentary 
organization—wherever that is done, there the school board becomes 
the agent under that body rather that the authority over it in the 
matter of determining the time of meeting and the handling of the 
business of that organization for the purposes of discussion. 

The sovereignty of the adult citizenship is recognized when the 
adult citizenship of any community is organized into a committee of 
the whole which does not represent a private, but does represent the 
public, interest. The experience of the three years in Rochester is 
that where such an organization was formed, on the basis not of party 
council but of common council, on the basis not of a faction but of 
the community as a whole, with the purpose of developing public 
intelligence through the all-sided presentation of public questions, 
the spirit of restraint has tended to develop. Miss Wilson has here 
the statement from the president of the board of education of the 
city of Rochester, and I may perhaps read from this statement re¬ 
garding the experience beginning the idea of the community forum 
organization. I read as follows: 

As the movement developed certain very significant phases appeared. One 
of the most interesting was the influence of free and fair discussion upon 
radical opinion. One of the most extreme socialists in the city publicly stated 
that his views had been seriously modified by the discussions in the civic clubs. 
Many others gave similar testimony. This result is the more surprising be¬ 
cause it was feared by many that these free centers of public discussion would 
be seized upon and controlled by radicals and extremists, and because radical 
opinion was freely expressed opponents of the movement charged that they 
were so controlled, but no action of any civic club ever gave the slightest 
foundation for such a charge. On the contrary, the net result of the move¬ 
ment was to modify extreme opinion and bring it into line with rational 
progress. 

If it will be of value, I would submit the complete statement of the 
experience from the first city which put into operation this principle. 

In the State of Wisconsin, in 1910. the Rochester demonstration 
of the possibility of community organization for self-education of 
adults was taken by the University of Wisconsin as a means of the 
self-development—self-spread—of the educational idea to which 
that State is devoted, and in 1910 the bureau of community center 


44 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

development was established in the university. Immediately the plan 
of organization set forth in this bill was put out in the form of a 
community constitution. Two towns in the State refused to have 
school buildings used where the adults desired and when the adults 
desired for the purposes that they desired, so that this law was 
enacted in 1910 and 1911 Avhich establishes the right—which creates 
the right and recognizes the right—of the adult citizenship of any 
community to determine the time of its own meeting, and places the 
school board in loco parentis of the children and over adults in the 
use by the adults and children in common of the school buildings. 
The experience of that State in the five years has demonstrated 
absolutely that respecting the responsibility and respecting the de¬ 
sires of the adults of a community does tend to produce the spirit of 
control, the spirit of interest in education, and does not at all tend 
toward any kind of abuse of the building, or uses that are not proper. 

The question specifically on the bill, whether any outside of a 
community organization can use the building under this proposed 
law. it seems to me is answered in the bill. The purpose of the bill— 
the purpose of this provision—is not only to assure a consistent use of 
the school buildings by the adults and by the older youth, but it is to 
prevent an inconsistent use of these buildings such as is sure to obtain 
so long as these public buildings are used for private organizations, 
which is the condition to-day, and is inevitable until the machinery 
of organizing the community on a basis of residential membership 
is established. The possibility that has been suggested of 20 people 
being given and having the schoolhouse for any kind of sectarian 
organization does not exist under the bill. Twenty people can start 
the machinery by which the people may have the opportunity of 
organizing the community as one body on the principle of a com¬ 
munity association, and that is very specifically provided for. 

Mr. Focht. Are you not connected with the Young Men’s Chris¬ 
tian Association of the United States as secretary ? 

Mr. Ward. No, sir. 

Mr. Focht. You approve of the Sunday entertainments? 

Mr. Ward. I would approve of the Sunday use of the building in 
any community that wanted it. The only place, may I say, as to 
which my approval may be appropriately expressed is in the Park 
View neighborhood, in which I happen to reside. I feel that within 
that neighborhood I have a very definite and distinct right to ex¬ 
press myself as to whether that building should be used on Sunday 
or not. I do not believe that I have a bit of right to say to the peo¬ 
ple in the Grover Cleveland community whether they should use their 
building on Sunday or not; neither do I believe that they have a bit 
of right to control our action in that respect. It seems to me that it 
is a matter which should be handled, after experiment, only by the 
people of each community for themselves. Moreover, in an experi¬ 
ence of nearly 10 years—9 years—since the principle of the Johnson 
bill has been in operation in the use of the public-school buildings in 
the city of Washington, this is the first time that I know of, here and 
now, that the issue of Sunday use has been raised—the issue of 
whether the adult citizens are to control the matter or whether the 
school board is to control the adult citizens. Usually it is not a 
question of whether they want to meet on Sunday, and in every case 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 45 

that I know of the school board has assumed that if they want to 
meet, then they will meet, and that that is a proposition for them to 
decide. That was the case in the city of Rochester; that is the case 
in Wisconsin and in California and in every one of the States where 
this bill holds—I mean where this provision is made. 

The point that is usually raised is on what topic the people shall 
talk and what shall be said in those community meetings. If you 
will go back into the situation in Ohio, you will find in Cincinnati 
that it was when the people wanted to talk about the street car 
service in Cincinnati that they were shut out of the school building, 
because it was that dangerous and incendiary topic of discussion on 
which they wanted to treat. In the State of Wisconsin, in the city 
of Appleton, the people wanted to talk about commission govern¬ 
ment, and the board of education did not approve of the idea of 
being put out of business, or the suggestion of putting out of busi¬ 
ness the board of aldermen, which gave them their positions, so they 
said that “ commission government ” would not be a proper subject 
for discussion. Over in New York City, if you noticed in the press 
recently, there has been a question as to whether or not the policy of 
u preparedness ” is a proper question for discussion in the school- 
houses, and the school board has been criticized on that. The school 
board has announced—the president of the school board has said that 
what is discussed is a matter for the people to decide themselves, 
provided it does not interfere with the law T s of the city and the police 
power of the city. I know of no case where the Sunday question 
has come up, and in an experience of 10 years I have very, very fre¬ 
quently spoken in school buildings on Sunday and never have known 
of a case of the community getting itself torn up over it, because it 
is assumed that the people shall meet when they desire. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You stated just now that this is a question of 
w hether the people shall control the school board or the school board 
shall control the people. Nowl the school board is seeking in no way 
that I knowr of. in this instance, to control the people. They merely 
want to control the property that has been put in their hands in 
trust. How could you hold the school board responsible for the 
property that has been put in its hands in trust if you are to deprive 
them of the control of that property and turn it over to the people? 

Mr. Ward. The exclusion of the people—I am not attempting to 
make a textual interpretation of the Constitution- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). You know what you are saying? 

Mr. Ward. Yes; I do; but the spirit of the first amendment to 
the Constitution is that Congress shall make no law' w'hich will inter¬ 
fere with the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and that is 
the spirit which recognizes not only the sovereignty but the parental 
responsibility of the people of the community and which recognizes 
their right to assemble, provided they be peaceable and orderly. 
Now, the assertion of that right, as I understand it, is not dependent 
upon the right to vote. I mean therein is recognized a certain right 
of the people, as Americans, which would apply to the people in the 
District of Columbia—the right of peaceable assembly. Now t , grant¬ 
ing that there is that right, m order to exercise that right, which is 
fundamental, there must be a place in which to meet. The place 
'which is owned bv the people is surely an appropriate place to meet, 


46 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


provided that the use of that place does not interfere with the pur¬ 
pose of its creation. Of course it seems to me that it would be inde¬ 
fensible to say that the adult citizenship of any community has any 
natural or artificial or any kind of right to use the schoolhouse in 
such a way as to interfere with its primary purpose as a place for 
the instruction of children; but, as I see it, the assembly right of the 
adult citizenship of the community implies the right of the adult 
citizenship to control or designate its own time of meeting. Now, 
when the school board or the board of education asserts—and I rec¬ 
ognize that under the present law the board of education is given that 
power, and it seems to me that the present law is anomalous to make 
the board of education, which is an agency for the instruction of 
the children, to give it power or to give it the opportunity for inter¬ 
preting the law as meaning that it has the power of control in this 
respect over the adult citizenship is an exaltation of the creature 
over the creator. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But no one claims that the school board has any 
right over the adult citizens. It merely vests them with the right to 
control the property which has been placed in their charge in trust. 
If, therefore, a minority in any one community, in the face of the 
known opposition of a large majority in that community, desires to 
use the property for which the people were taxed that it might be 
created, do you think a condition of that kind ought to obtain, where 
that minority can use that property as it sees fit, in the face of the 
known objection of a large majority of the other citizens in that 
community ? 

Mr. Ward. No: I do not. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Under this law, would not that be possible? 

Mr. Ward. No, sir. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Let us see; you would permit, say, 20 adults in any 
community to use the school building absolutely without any restric¬ 
tion— 

Mr. Ward (interposing). I suggest a reading of the bill. 

Mr. Ragsdale. All right, sir; I will read it to you: 

Sec. 2. That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Commis¬ 
sioners of the District of Columbia by not less than 20 adult persons residing 
within a radius of one-half mile of a public-school building designated by the 
said commissioners for use as a community forum the said commissioners shall 
define and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must reside to 
entitle them to membership and participation in an association of adult persons 
to use as a communty forum a public-school building designated by the said 
commissioners for that purpose. 

Mr. Ward. May I suggest that you are using the board of educa¬ 
tion bill in place of the commissioners’? 

Mr. Ragsdale. That does not alter the principle. 

Mr. Ward. No. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is immaterial. (Reading) : 

That whenever application is made to the board of education of the District 
of Columbia, as provided in section 2 of this act, the said board shall direct the 
superintendent of public schools, etc. 

Now, if you can show me why it requires more than 20 persons to 
organize that in a community that might comprise a thousand peo¬ 
ple—if you can show me why those 20 people might not, in the face 
of the opposition of a majority of the balance of them, form a forum, 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 47 

I shall be glad to have you do so, and if you can show me how they 
might not deprive this board of the right to control that property 
under this law, I would like to have you do it, 

Mr. Ward. Suppose that 20 people, under the provisions of this 
bill—-let us take a specific building, the Grover Cleveland section 
building, for instance, that building having been designated by the 
board of education as available for use as a community forum, and 
among the people there, we will say, there is one who gets 19 other 
people to agree that it is desirable to have that building open for use 
as a community forum. They take a statement in writing to that 
effect to the board of education, and it thereupon becomes the duty 
of the board of education not to turn the building over to them, but 
to define the territory in which shall reside the membership of the 
citizens or persons—adult persons—who can control or who shall have 
the right of control of that building. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Oh, no. Pardon me. When this is done, it also be¬ 
comes their duty not merely to define the territory, but under sec¬ 
tion 5, on page 3, it says: 

That when an organization of adult persons shall have been formed and by¬ 
laws and regulations adopted for the conduct of the meetings of the association 
as provided in the preceding section, it shall be the duty of the board of edu¬ 
cation to make all necessary arrangements and provision for the comfortable 
and convenient use of the school building for the weekly, biweekly, or monthly 
meetings of such association at such times as the association may designate for 
its meetings. 

Therefore, you have an association of 20 people, and they take 
over the building, and they designate the time, and it becomes 
the duty of the board to provide all the conveniences and comforts 
necessary for their use. In other words, you propose to turn over, 
under this act, this public property of the District of Columbia, to 
provide and maintain which all the people of the United States have 
been taxed, to a small minority of the people, and to give them 
absolute control of these public structures for such use as they may 
see fit to make of them; is not that correct ? 

Mr. Ward. No, sir. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then tell me wherein I am not correct ? 

Mr. Ward. In the first place, the uses which you are condemning 
are the uses which are now made of them. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But do not let us discuss the uses. 

Mr. Ward. But, in passing, let us make the point—because I want 
to say that I am absolutely with you in the position as to the private 
sectarian use of public property, and I will say that that is the only 
kind of use that is going on now, and that is the use that will con¬ 
tinue until this bill is enacted—but to get back to the form of organ¬ 
ization, these 20 people who want to have the building, not for their 
use, but for use as a community forum, go to the school board and 
say that they so desire. It then becomes the duty of the school board 
to agree upon a primary unit of organization; that is, a primary dis¬ 
tance comparable to the public school district that exists in that 
community. It then becomes the duty of the board of education— 
and it seems to me that this is very plainly set forth—through its 
agent, its responsible agent, the superintendent or the principal, to 
arrange a meeting, which shall be announced as a public meeting, 
and so published in the press. 


48 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I read all that. 

Mr. Ward. At this meeting, which is called for the organization 
of a community forum, the people of that district—the adult citizens 
of that district—have the opportunity to come there to that build¬ 
ing and organize, or to vote not to organize. They have an absolute 
referendum—an absolute veto on whether that building shall be so 
used or not. It can not be used unless a majority of the people 
who are interested enough to come to that public meeting vote to 
have it used as a community forum. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Can you show me that in the bill ? 

Mr. Ward. Why, certainly. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I wish you would. 

Mr. Ward. That is in what you were reading. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Oh, no. 

Mr. Ward. That whenever application is made to the board of ed¬ 
ucation, as provided in section 2 of the act, by 20 persons- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). Oh, no; but show me that clause 
where you say that a majority of the people may prevent its for¬ 
mation. 

Mr. Focht. Where do you get any referendum ? 

Mr. Ward. The superintendent shall issue a call for the meeting of 
organization and shall serve as organization secretary until an asso¬ 
ciation of adult persons shall have been formed or organized. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You state specifically that it only requires 20 adult 
persons. 

Mr. Ward. Oh, no; I do not. I say that 20 adult persons may 
touch the button that wfill start the current going. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Show me specifically where it requires more than 
20 persons to form an organization. Just show me that. 

Mr. Ward. The meeting is announced as a public meeting. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I know; as many people as desire may attend the 
meeting; but show me where in this bill it requires more than 20 to 
form such an organization. 

Mr. Ward. I have not said that it did. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then, 20 may do it? 

Mr. Ward. I have said that there is an opportunity for the whole 
community to attend the meeting. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I know that. 

Mr. Ward. And there is an opportunity for referendum. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Where? 

Mr. Ward. Of the adult citizens of the whole District. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Oh, no; there is an opportunity to join the organ¬ 
ization. I know that. 

Mr. Ward. No ; to decide whether or not they will organize. Do 
you decide whether or not you will organize the House at the begin¬ 
ning of a session ? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Oh, no. That is fixed by law that it shall be organ¬ 
ized, and the people down home decide whether or not I shall be a 
Member of the House. 

Mr. Ward. Where is the authority of the people down home under 
which you act, ultimately ? 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 49 

Mr. Ragsdale. We act under the Constitution, my dear sir. The 
Constitution determines how people shall be elected as Members of 
Congress. 

Mr. Ward. The Constitution is the constitution of the States, as 
representatives. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Oh, no; we are entitled to representation here by 
reason of the National Constitution; not by reason of the State con¬ 
stitution. 

Mr. Ward. The final authority. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes; the final authority is the United States Con¬ 
stitution. 

Mr. Ward. But the authority under the Constitution is the sov¬ 
ereignty of the people of the States. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes; and we have to go into a regular election in 
order to determine it, and until we get a majority vote by the people 
we can not come here. Under this you propose that a minority of 
20 people- 

Mr. Ward (interposing). Oh, no. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Show 7 me where it requires more than 20 people to 
form this organization? 

Mr. Ward. I say that the announcement of a public meeting makes 
it possible- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). Oh, yes; you say that the oppor¬ 
tunity to attend a public meeting gives them an opportunity to de¬ 
cide, but show me where it requires more than 20 people to form this 
organization. 

Mr. Ward. I say if an opportunity is given for all of the persons 
in the local community to come to the building and vote upon the 
organization of an association of this character- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). And if they do not want to attend, 
then 20 may go and join and organize, and operate and control the 
public property, in absolute defiance of the balance and the majority 
of that community? 

Mr. Ward. If the large majority has a will, it is up to them to 
prevent it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. How can they prevent it? 

Mr. Ward. They can come and vote against it. Those people, if 
they are opposed to the use of this building, they have the perfect 
right to come there, and any person attending that meeting, and 
moving that they shall not organize, and a majority of the people 
there supporting him, will prevent that organization. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Oh, no. You can organize as a forum with 20, 
and the forum of 20 can control the situation, and the only way the 
people opposed to it could prevent the use of their property would 
be to give up every Sunday afternoon, and come and vote against it. 

Mr. Ward. No ; not every Sunday afternoon. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Well, whenever you have a meeting. 

Mr. Ward. No; only at the first meeting. ^ 

Mr. Ragsdale. And if they did not join it the first time, then the 
20 could continue to use the property as they saw fit; is not that 
true ? 

Mr. Ward. No. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Let us be fair about it. 

38523—16-4 




50 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Ward. No. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Show me where, in the bill, the 20 can not organize 
that as they please. 

Mr. Ward. I cite the fact that under the laws which to-day pro¬ 
vide for the use of the building by the people of the community there 
has never been that kind of use by a small group- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). I am not talking about that; I am 
talking about this particular bill. 

Mr. Ward. This is not a new proposition. It has been experi¬ 
mentally shown that the people of the communities desire it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then you are going on experiments elsewhere, 
rather than on this bill. 

Mr. Ward. Oh, no. 

Mr. Focht. Mr. Ward, are you a resident of Washington? 

Mr. Ward. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Focht. Are you prepared to say that a majority of the citizens 
of Washington, although the case has been ably,' if not brilliantly, 
presented by those who live in remote States or other States—but I 
would like to ask you if it is your opinion that a majority of the 
people of Washington feel so pressed for time that they feel they 
have to use Sunday for these meetings of various kinds, and enter¬ 
tainments in the schoolhouses; is that your opinion ? 

Mr. Ward. My opinion is that the desires of the people in any 
community- 

Mr. Focht. No; I am asking you a direct question as to Washing¬ 
ton. This does not apply to any other city except Washington, and 
I would like to know whether that is the universal desire of the peo¬ 
ple of Washington. We will determine the question with regard to 
Pennsylvania and other States when we reach them. 

Mr. Ward. The Sunday question- 

Mr. Focht (interposing). I want to ask you if you reflect the views 
of the people of the city of Washington, and do you say that they 
want these schoolhouses open on Sunday for entertainments and 
political meetings? 

Mr. Ward. In the first place, the expression has come from various 
organizations of various sorts- 

Mr. Focht (interposing). Will you please be good enough to name 
some of those organizations that have asked for this enactment ? 

Mr. Ward. Those who have favored this bill? 

Mr. Focht. Yes. 

Mr. Ward. The Park View Citizens’ Association, which is greatly 
interested, because we hope next fall, when our building will be ready, 
that we will have this provision under which it may be used. The 
Mid-City Citizens’ Association- 

Mr. Focht (interposing). I am speaking particularly of the Sun¬ 
day proposition; the rest we accept. I do not question that at all. 

Mr. Ward. In every case what they stand for is not whether the 
building should be used on Sunday or not, but that the people in any 
community should decide that matter rather than any public body 
or other community. 

Mr. Vinson. Each forum will determine how it shall be used? 

Mr. Ward. Yes. 

Mr. Focht. And, as Mr. Ragsdale says, 20 people will determine 
what a whole community shall do. 

Mr. Ward. Has not that point been made clear? 






COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 51 

Mr. Focht. Not to me. 

Mr. Ward. Just you go to a Michigan school-district meeting, and 4 * 
20 people can go there and control the meeting if only 20 attend. 
When the school clerk calls a meeting everybody has the opportunity 
to go there, and if they do not come, of course they do not come. 

Mr. Crosser. Might not 20 men elect the gentleman to my left or 
myself to Congress if nobody else came to the polls to vote? 

Mr. Ward. Surely. 

Mr. Mapes. Mr. Ward, do you recognize any difference between the 
conditions here in the District of Columbia and the people outside or 
the laws outside? Do any of these State laws take out of the control 
of the board of education entirely—as I think the idea that this bill 
contemplates would do—the control of the school buildings after 
school hours? 

Mr. Ward. So far as the designation of the time for the peoples’ 
meeting, the meeting of the adult citizens, and what they may do at 
those meetings is concerned; yes. Seven States in the Union do 
that, and it operates perfectly and operates without any difficulty. 

Mr. Mapes. So that the community could go there and leave the 
building in any sort of shape, whether it interfered with the op¬ 
eration of the schools for the education of children or not ? 

Mr. Ward. No; it becomes the duty of the school board to pro¬ 
vide for janitor service incidental to the community meeting. 

Mr. Mapes. But suppose the community went in there and left the 
building in very bad shape; is there anv wav. under this bill, that 
the board of education or anyone would have the authority to say, 
“ Now, you must conduct yourselves properly and leave the build¬ 
ing in proper order, or you can not have the use of this building ” ? 

Mr. Ward. There is no danger of any kind of abuse. 

Mr. Mapes. I know, but if that should be done, do you consider 
it any weakness in this bill that there is no ultimate authority to 
prevent that? For instance, you were discussing a while ago- 

Mr. Ward (interposing). Well, the police would have the au¬ 
thority to prevent that. 

Mr. Mapes. Suppose there were a conflict of authority and sup¬ 
pose the board of education or the school authorities shouid say their 
schools were being interefered with, is it any weakness in this bill 
that there is no ultimate authority that could decide that issue ? 

Mr. Ward. The ultimate authority is right there on the job, and 
he is very, very sensitive—namely, public opinion. If the school 
board could show that any building had been abused the school board 
would be upheld immediately and that abuse would have to stop. 
The fact is, as I say, that the buildings are not abused. The use of 
them tends to improve them. 

Mr. Mapes. Had Congress, in passing a law, passed it in such 
broad terms that there would be nobody to look after the building— 
that is, no responsible authority to look after the building- 

Mr. Ward (interposing). There is always the police authority. 
There is no suggestion that rioting should be allowed within this 
building or anything of that kind. There is always the police law. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You do not mean that the police ought to come 
there and overawe this town meeting- 

Mr. Ward (interposing). It has never been necessary. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But you are suggesting it. 



52 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Ward. The Congressman has asked about in case of a riot, or 
suppose the people did want to tear down the building. 

Mr. Vinson. Suppose a heated controversy should take place 
between two public speakers on a Sunday afternoon; suppose you 
had two speakers discussing prohibition, do you think it would be 
necessary to call in the police? 

Mr. Ward. Certainly not. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Suppose a community, comprised entirely of the 
negro race, should have a forum meeting on Sunday afternoon, do 
you think that would tend very much to the development of the com¬ 
munity’s interest? 

Mr. Ward. The meeting of the parents of the children in the school, 
whether they happened to be white parents in a white school or negro 
parents in a negro school building, there is always a great restraining 
influence that absolutely works, and that is the fact that that building 
represents to them the interests of their children, and that applies 
whether it be a negro community or a white community. People will 
be more careful, will be more self-controlling in the use of a school 
building than they will in the use of any other public property what¬ 
soever. 

Mr. Vinson. Following the line suggested by Mr. Mapes in regard 
to the possible injury to the building, the laws of the District prohibit 
any public building being abused, and therefore it is not necessary 
to have any guardian to take care of these buildings during such a 
meeting of a forum. The law on the statute books insures to the 
people of the District that their property will be protected ? 

Mr. Ward. Surely. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The law automatically takes care of that, does it? 

Mr. Vinson. No; but the law-abiding citizens will see that it is 
reported to the police. 

Mr. Ward. The law is parentally responsible, and the community 
interests assert themselves, and that is exactly the importance of a 
community center. 

Mr. Ragsdale. What is your relation to the schools of the District 
of Columbia? 

Mr. Ward. I am one of the staff of the bureau of education, since 
the 1st of January, and up to the 1st of January I was engaged in 
the work of community organization in Wisconsin. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You are now on the staff of the bureau of education? 

Mr. Ward. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Are you on the salary roll of the Government ? 

Mr. Ward. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And the United States Government pays vour 
salary? 

Mr. Ward. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Who appointed you, may I ask ? 

Mr. Ward. Commissioner Claxton. 

Mr. Ragsdale. What is your salary, mav I ask? 

Mr. Ward. $1. 

Mr. Mapes. I will say that I did not have in mind what the mem¬ 
bers of the committee suggested, that the community was going to 
tear down the building, or anything of that kind, but supposed they 
brought in a lot of dirt and littered it up, and things of that kind. 
That was what I had in mind. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 53 

Mr. Ward. Y es. 

Mr. Mapes. But I am interested to know why the city of Rochester 
changed the system there. You said it was the practice in the city of 
Rochester- 

Mr. Ward (interposing). \es; that lias been pretty extensively 
covered. 

Mr. Lloyd. Yes; it is in the record. 

Mr. Ward. And very well set forth bv the president of the board of 
education, George M. Ford. I may say that the idea was not changed 
until a change in the party control. The board of education came 
to be not in favor of, but opposed to, the people using the building 
along the principle of this bill, and it was because the movement 
could be blocked by a change of the spirit of the board of education 
that it seemed necessary to establish the right of the people to use the 
buildings; and it was on that ground that the bill was introduced in 
W isconsin. 


LESSONS LEARNED IN ROCHESTER. 

[Address delivered by George M. Forbes, LL. D.. professor of education in the University 
of Rochester, president of the Rochester Board of Education, and president of the New 
York State Teachers’ Association, before the First National Conference on Civic and 
Social Center Development, at Madison, Wis., Oct. 26, 1911.] 

The movement for the wider use of school buildings in Rochester was from 
the very beginning consciously and deliberately planned, as Gov. Hughes ex¬ 
pressed it, to “ buttress the foundations of democracy,” It was, therefore, in 
the very broadest sense, educational and yet without any suggestion of the 
organization or atmosphere of a school. It was educational in the sense that 
where there is human aspiration and joint effort for better things—there is 
education. 


THE FOUNDATION OF THE SOCIAL-CENTER MOVEMENT. 

The very foundation of the movement was built upon the underlying assump¬ 
tion of democracy that the spirit of good will is in the average man, and that 
this spirit may become dominant; that this spirit is ethical and has two aspects; 
one is the consciousness of the essential equality of men as persons. Upon this 
is founded the sense of justice. The other is the consciousness of the essential 
solidarity of men so that they must realize the true good together. Upon 
this is founded the spirit of brotherhood. 

Democracy assumes that the average man will take this ethical attitude 

when rightly appealed to and when he is free to act; that is, it assumes that 

you can trust the final issues of human well-being to the sense of justice and 
the sense of brotherhood of the average man. This means that the average 
man is ethical in the very roots of his being, and capable of such ethical de¬ 
velopment as makes him worthy to be a member of the final court of appeal 

for justice and brotherhood. What is overlooked in this assumption is the 
established fact that absolutely no inborn endowment of a human being de¬ 
velops except in response to its appropriate stimulus, and that the selfish 
instinct, equally innate, may be so stimulated as to repress the ethical nature 
and leave it to atrophy and perish altogether. It is, therefore, an absolutely 
essential condition of democracy that the ethical spirit shall be aroused in the 
average citizen by appropriate stimulation. This can not be left to haphazard 
influences. The existing dominant influences are those which appeal to selfish 
instincts. Modern individualism with its rule of each for himself has ab¬ 
normally stimulated the spirit of unscrupulous competition on the one hand or 
monopolistic greed on the other. It has repressed and atrophied the sense of 
brotherhood and developed to an inordinate extent the selfish impulses. Under 
these circumstances the faith in’democracy is futile unless there is a syste¬ 
matic appeal to the ethical spirit, the deliberate provision of a soil in which 
it can grow. 




54 COMMUNITY FORUMS TN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


AN INSTITUTION OF DEMOCRACY NECESSARY. 

We are accustomed to say that social evolution has reached the conscious 
stage that we are advancing with increasing momentum, because we are in¬ 
telligently shaping social progress and not leaving it to the slow processes 
of nature; but what institutions* are we shaping? Are they those which will 
guarantee the systematic development of the communal spirit? Rather, we 
are now intensely occupied in forging the tools of democracy—the direct pri¬ 
mary, the initiative, the referendum, the recall, the short ballot, commission 
government. But in our enthusiasm we do not seem to be aware that these 
tools will be worthless unless they are used by those who are impelled by a 
sense of brotherhood. If the action of a democracy is to be but the resultant 
of a clash of selfish interests it is hardly worth battling for. It can give at 
best but a negative good. The truth is that we have developed every kind of 
institution and every form of education except the one fundamental kind of 
institution and form of education upon which the very existence of democracy 
depends. Every institution within the State, except the public school, is more 
or less exclusive. The family, the church, the political party, the social classes, 
the endless social groups and organizations—commercial, industrial, fraternal, 
narrowly social—all are exclusive and have exclusive interests. They can 
never develop the ethical spirit as a community spirit, a spirit that transcends 
all such bounds and feels that its supreme membership is in the whole com¬ 
munity and that the greatest good is that which may be shared by every human 
being in the community. 

THE PRESENT PUBLIC SCHOOL INSUFFICIENT. 

The public elementary school, our only nonexclusive institution, can not ade¬ 
quately meet the ethical demands of democracy. Its limitations are too great. 
One serious limitation is the fact that it is confined to very immature minds, 
with very narrow and very simple experience. Another is that all school work 
is by necessity artificial, isolated from life, even from the life of the family, 
and so abstract. The school, as such, is not an ethical community. It is not 
a democracy. It is an absolute monarchy. It is an institution framed to fur¬ 
nish every child with some mastery of the fundamental tools of civilized life— 
reading, writing, and the elements of number and measure. Hence, no matter 
how excellent the teaching of the elementary school, it is utterly inadequate 
to develop the ethical attitude of the mature citizen to the problems of the 
whole community. It is utterly unable to fortify the child against the selfish 
appeals of real life. 

Democracy must have its distinctive institution for the stimulation and de¬ 
velopment, of the community spirit. This institution must be free from limi¬ 
tations; it must appeal to relatively mature minds dealing with the actual 
experiences of community life. Furthermore, it must be in itself a realization 
of democracy, not merely nonexclusive, but positively all inclusive, the one 
civic and social institution coextensive with the State which takes in every¬ 
body solely by virtue of his living in the community. The relation of this in¬ 
stitution to the community life as a whole must not be artificial or abstract, 
but vital, exercising real initiative, dealing with actual problems, with a view 
to real betterment of community life. This is the institution of the social 
center. 

MOVEMENT CONSCIOUSLY DEMOCRATIC. 

If Rochester has any lesson to teach regarding the community use of school 
buildings it is because the movement in Rochester was from the very begin¬ 
ning consciously and deliberately founded upon these principles, and its su¬ 
preme aim was to arouse and develop the ethical spirit of the whole com¬ 
munity. The movement was, therefore, in the broadest and most fundamental 
sense educational, but it was in no sense the establishing of a school or the 
extension of existing schools. 

The most vital education, and preeminently the ethical education, essential 
for citizenship can never be achieved in the artificial atmosphere of a school. 
Hence the very deepest purpose of the movement was to make each neighbor¬ 
hood conscious of its civic functions and power, it was to make real democracy 
conscious and bring it into action. The idea was to establish in each community 
an institution having a direct and vital relation to the welfare of the neigh¬ 
borhood, ward, or district and also to the city as a whole. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 55 


NEIGHBORHOOD CIVIC CLUB RESULT,S. 

W hat was called the neighborhood civic club, composed of adult citizens, of 
all classes, parties, and shades of opinion, was the very foundation stone of 
the whole movement, and the first great lesson of the movement is that such 
organizations became actualities, held their meetings in school buildings, have 
had continuous existence for four years; that they did actually develop the 
community spirit in a most remarkable degree, and that they proved to he 
capable of discussing in the spirit of fairness and good will questions involv¬ 
ing the most extreme and radical differences of opinion; they proved not only 
willing hut eager and insistent to hear both sides of the questions considered, 
and that they did not “ lose their heads ” nor were they “ carried away ” by 
radical utterances and appeals so as to take any hasty or ill-considered action. 
Not a single instance of such action can be cited in the history of some 20 
civic clubs in as many different neighborhood school buildings. * On the con¬ 
trary, on their initiative notable contributions to the welfare of the neighbor¬ 
hoods and to the whole city have been made. It was this spirit which pro¬ 
foundly inspired Gov. Hughes and led him to say, on the occasion of the 
second anniversary of the first civic club, “ I am more interested in what you 
are doing here than in anything else in the world. You are buttressing the 
foundations of democracy.” There are a multitude of lesser witnesses who 
will testify that the atmosphere of these clubs and their associated activities 
gave them a wholly new revelation of community spirit, that here they felt 
for the first time the wonderful thrill of human brotherhood actually realized. 
The intensity of this feeling was illustrated by a prominent visitor from Buf¬ 
falo who remarked as he came out of a meeting, “I feel as if I had been in 
a religious revival.” 

FREE DISCUSSION MODIFIES RADICAL OPINION. 

As the movement developed certain very significant phases appeared. One 
of the most interesting was the influence of free and fair discussion upon radi¬ 
cal opinion. One of the most extreme socialists in the city publicly stated 
that his views had been seriously modified by the discussions in the civic clubs. 
Many others gave similar testimony. This result is the more surprising be¬ 
cause it was feared by many that these free centers of public discussion would 
be seized upon and controlled by radicals and extremists, and because radical 
opinion was freely expressed, opponents of the movement charged that they 
were so controlled, but no action of any civic club ever gave the slightest 
foundation for such a charge. On the contrary, the net result of the move¬ 
ment was to modify extreme opinion and bring it into line with rational prog¬ 
ress. 

The movement vindicated the opinion that the average man is a conservative 
or moderate progressive, and will take only one step at a time in the path 
of progress. 

Another most interesting side light was the fact that the most congested 
quarter of the city, with a large foreign element in the population, and, judged 
by conventional standards, lacking in education, culture, and material well¬ 
being, proved to be thoroughly responsive to the civic spirit, and it was a com¬ 
mon remark of the ablest speakers at civic clubs that they did not find in the 
twelfth ward, with its wealth and culture and large number of so-called “ best 
citizens,” anyhing like the civic spirit and breadth of view that was found in 
district No. 9, which was the most congested quarter of the city. 

ALL CLASSES OF CITIZENS GET TOGETHER. 

Several of these clubs had such border-line locations that they gave a prac¬ 
tical demonstration of the fact that all classes of the citizenship could work 
together without a trace of class distinction. 

There was nothing in the experience of these clubs which so impressively 
brought home the lesson of real democracy, as the appearance of public officials 
in response to their invitations to explain their policies, their acts and the 
methods of operation of their departments. There was such full opportunity 
for questions and answers as resulted in illuminating for the average man 
the whole field of their work, and made him a much more intelligent and sym¬ 
pathetic critic of public officials. It vitalized for both official and citizen the 
theory that the officials were really servants and not masters and exploiters 
of the people. 







56 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


NONPARTISAN POLITICAL HEADQUARTERS. 

Equally effective in a different way was the method by which these clubs 
made use of a political campaign. They invited able representatives of the 
various parties to present on different occasions to a nonpartisan body in a 
calm and dispassionate way, their reasons for their political faith. Nothing 
could more effectively emancipate the average man from a blind and narrow 
partisanship born of tradition and prejudice. 

THE DISTINCTIVE MARK OF THE ROCHESTER MOVEMENT. 

I dwell thus upon the life and functions of the neighborhood civic club be¬ 
cause it is the corner stone of all that is distinctive in the Rochester movement. 
It means that our public-school buildings, consecrated to education, may 
become the instruments of that deepest and most fundamental education upon 
which the very existence of democracy depends. This use gives depth, serious¬ 
ness, purpose, and unity to every subordinate use. All other clubs, the special 
women’s clubs, the young men’s clubs, the girls’ and the.boys’ clubs are in¬ 
spired and shaped by the spirit and ideals of the neighborhood civic club, and 
for this reason they too become schools of the community spirit. They are 
recreational and educational in many other respects as well, but the civic 
spirit gives unity and purpose to the whole. This gives all its real initiative 
and power to the movement because it takes it up into the very life and purpose 
of democracy. 


OTHER USES OF SOCIAL CENTER VALUABLE. 

I do not wish to be misunderstood. Without the civic club the social center 
is well worth while. Its possibility of certain kinds of good to the community 
is inestimable. Apart from the civic club every school building should be a 
neighborhood clubhouse. No one could possibly estimate too highly the need 
in every neighborhood for a public place of wholesome recreation, social inter¬ 
course, physical development, and the opportunity to combat the awful igno¬ 
rance of the proper conditions of wholesome living and social well-being 
through lectures by competent persons. These ends are amply sufficient to 
justify this convention, and support an increasing and widening agitation till 
every school building in this country is suitably equipped and open for this 
purpose without any other payment by those who wish to use it than the 
public taxes to which all self-supporting persons necessarily contribute directly 
or indirectly through the cost of living. I have seen a neighborhood of working 
people, characterized by vicious moral standards, chiefly because its young 
working men and women were driven to the streets and dance halls for recre¬ 
ation, undergoing complete transformation because the young men and women 
were permitted to use the school building under wise, friendly supervision and 
thus provided the wholesome recreation and the powerful moral impulse they 
sorely needed. 

BUT CITIZENS’ ORGANIZATION ESSENTIAL FOR DEMOCRACY. 

I only insist that while the social center may be an inestimable good, it 
makes no necessary contribution to the problem of democracy unless it is also 
a civic center developing the consciousness of communal responsibility and 
power. The social center may be an inestimable good granted to the "people 
or provided for them, but it may not mean anything done by the people. New 
York City does a great deal for the people in its recreation centers, but there is 
practically nothing done by the people. If New York City had real neighborhood 
civic clubs in every school building, a new charter would not be prepared by a 
handful of men and then presented to the legislature without even saying by 
your leave to the people who were to live under it. 

What I wish to insist upon is that the neighborhood civic club, as embodying 
the spirit of real democracy, is, in my judgment, Rochester’s great contribution 
to the problem of the use of school buildings by the people. If Rochester's 
social centers have had a unique enthusiasm and vitality, if they have gotten 
a unique hold upon the community, as I believe they have, it is because they 
have been also genuine civic centers inspired fundamentally by the civic spirit. 
No social center can meet the present crisis in the history of democracy without 
an organization open to all voters of the neighborhood and feeling the ultimate 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 57 


responsibility of citizenship for the securing of the common welfare. An or* 
ganization in which every narrower interest of sect or party or class is 
swallowed up in the consciousness that the interests of the whole community 
are supreme and that the effort to realize them in the spirit of brotherhood is 
the supreme function and the supreme satisfaction of citizenship. 

THE RISE OK OPPOSITION. 

These experiences gave the movement an increasing hold upon the steadily 
growing number of people who came within its influence. The best possible 
test of this “ hold ” was its power to meet and resist opposition. This oppo* 
sition was intelligently focused upon the very nerve of the movement, the 
free discussion of the civic club. It developed early and took various forms. 
One form was the quiet effort of political forces to take possession of civic 
clubs in their very beginning by dominating the initial citizens’ meeting. An¬ 
other was the sensational exploitation in the newspapers of the one or two cases 
of hasty or ill-considered remarks of speakers and the exaggeration and dis¬ 
tortion of any unusual incident, however innocent or trivial, in a way to excite 
prejudice and give an unfavorable impression. Another was the charge that 
the social centers were centers of socialistic propaganda, because Socialists 
were given equal opportunity with others to present their side of questions 
under consideration. All these methods of attack were unavailing, except as 
they aroused the prejudices of many who did not know the facts. 

* 

OPPOSITION STRIKES AT APPROPRIATION. 

The last resort was to strike at the appropriation and attempt to influence 
the authorities to cut it out of the annual budget before the movement should 
gather irresistible headway. A crisis came regarding the third annual appro¬ 
priation and a determined effort was made to defeat it, but the movement was 
already so deeply rooted and the authorities were so flooded with petitions, 
committees, resolutions, and protests from those who had felt the power and 
who saw the significance of social centers that the officials were obliged to yield 
and make provision for another year. The amount appropriated, however, was 
not enough to pay the salaries of the force of directors, club organizers, 
librarians, and gymnasium instructors for the full season. When the board of 
education announced to this staff of workers that through shortage in the appro¬ 
priation the season would be shortened, every man and woman engaged in this 
public service offered to, and actually did, give without compensation this work 
for the city, so that the social centers might be kept open and running to the 
end of the regular season. 

Such enthusiasm on the part of the staff of supervisors and directors, backed 
by such a flood of popular approval in the communities in which social centers 
had developed, would seem irresistible, and resort was had to a shifting of 
accounts in the tax budget. The appropriation for the wider use of the school 
plant had been made as a separate fund put into the hands of the school board 
and entirely distinct from the regular educational fund. Now, this fund was 
simply merged with those for other purposes, so that it was not known till too 
late that the appropriation for social centers had been cut down. 

Success in restoring the appropriation must depend wholly upon the initiative 
and leadership of the federated civic clubs and the public sentiment tliey are 
able to bring to bear upon the present administration. 

SOCIAL CENTER RALLYING WORD OF COMMUNITY PROGRESS. 

Meantime the energy and persistence of the civic spirit which centers in this 
movement is the greatest hope for the future in our community. It is the one 
rallying point for the democratic spirit, which is bound sooner or later to 
triumph in its determination to restore power to the people. I do not know 
whether the particular form of organization which I have described as a neigh¬ 
borhood civic club will prove to be permanent in our own or any other com¬ 
munity, but I am profoundly convinced that unless this or something like this 
can be given the permanence of a settled institution, democracy as a permanent 
and effective form of government will be but the end of the rainbow of hu« 
inanity’s great hope and age-long effort, ever receding as we advance. 











58 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


FAITH IN DEMOCRACY INCREASED. 

In any case the movement in Rochester has increased our faith in the com¬ 
mon man; it has demonstrated that if he seems selfish it is because he lives 
Under conditions which bring no incentive but to look out for himself. It has 
shown most strikingly that the ethical-social spirit within the average human 
being springs to life and power in response to the quickening influence of the 
community challenge, and, finally, that he finds his greatest satisfaction in the 
expression of that spirit in action and is, in association with his fellows, our 
only hope of a trustworthy, final court of appeal for the realization of justice 
and progress in human society. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MISS MARGARET WOODROW 

WILSON. 

Miss Wilson. I believe that this committee is losing sight of the 
main issue in asking personal questions, and in asking questions about 
whether 20 or more could bring about this organization. The ques¬ 
tion before you is whether you are going to establish the right of 
the citizenship to the use of the public-school buildings in the Dis¬ 
trict of Columbia, and that is the question which will come before 
the legislators of the States, and whether 20 or more will belong to 
the organization is neither here nor there. Now, that the question 
of woman suffrage is up it is not inherent to the question how many 
women will go to the polls and vote, but whether the women shall 
have suffrage. The question before you now is whether the citizens 
of the District of Columbia shall have the right to use their own 
public-school buildings as they see fit. I will yield to the opposition 
now. 

Mr. Lloyd. I have promised Mr. Blair, not representing either 
side but as president of the board of education, that he might have 
opportunity to explain the position of the school board for five 
minutes. 

STATEMENT OF MR. HENRY P. BLAIR, PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD 
OF EDUCATION OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Blair. Gentlemen of the committee, there has been some evi¬ 
dent misunderstanding of the position of the board of education with 
respect to this matter. We are neither for nor against the proposi¬ 
tion ; we are engaged in an effort to administer the law as Congress 
has given it to us. What I have to say may in some respects perhaps 
favor the legislation which is before you, and in other respects may 
bear directly against it; but I wish you to have the situation before 
you, so that you may understand, to put it in the lawyer’s phrase¬ 
ology, what the old law is, what the remedy proposed is, and whether 
there is need of the remedy. 

There is some question, I find on looking into the statutes, as to 
the exact condition with respect to the use of school buildings until 
the Twenty-seventh Statutes, which would be about 22 years ago; 
that would be about 1893—in that neighborhood—when, through 
some unfortunate use of the building granted to an organization 
which was having a large convention or encampment here, Congress 
passed an act that thereafter the public-school buildings of the Dis¬ 
trict of Columbia should be used for no purpose whatsoever other 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 59 

than those directly connected with the public-school system of the 
District of Columbia. That is found in Twenty-seventh Statutes, 
at page 546. With slight modification, which I believe came with 
some of the school-appropriation legislation, allowing us to use the 
buildings for supplemental educational purposes, which, if I recall 
the date, was about the time of what Ave call our organic act, of 1906, 
that has been the law in the District of Columbia, and was until 
March 4, 1915, AAlien the act which was passed by the last Congress, 
and Avhich Ave have called the “private use of the school buildings 
act,” for the promotion of Avhich and for the success of which we are 
much indebted to Miss Wilson, became the laAv. That Avas approA ed 
March 4, 1915, and Ave have been operating under that law slightly 
more than a year. 

That laAv enlarges the former use of the public-school buildings so 
that the control of the buildings by the board extends to and in¬ 
cludes and comprises the use of the buildings and grounds for pupils 
of the public schools, and other children and adults, for supple¬ 
mentary educational purposes, civic meetings for the free discussion 
of public questions, social centers, centers of recreation, and play¬ 
grounds, and that is the situation with respect to the power and 
control of the school buildings at the present time. 

I must admit that I haA r e great difficulty in finding any necessity 
for the earlier sections of this bill. I fail to see why Ave can not, 
under the provisions of the present law, grant the free use of the 
school buildings for forum purposes as they have been defined and 
explained to us. and. so far as 1 know, there has been no discussion 
that has arisen with respect to the granting of this privilege, save 
over the one question, when Ave had an application from the Gro\ r er 
Cleveland community forum for the use of the building on Sunday 
as a regular meeting day—Sunday afternoon. They were permitted 
to use the building two Sundays because of the arrangements Avhich 
they had made before the permission of the board was sought, and 
apparently they had assumed that they were entitled to it, and the 
organization meeting or the first meeting was permitted, and one the 
following Sunday; and then the matter was made the subject of a 
hearing before the board, and after a hearing, which occupied the 
time you gentlemen have already given to this—just about three 
hours—and after ha\ T ing heard e\ r eryone who cared to speak to us, 
the conclusion Avas reached that the sentiment of the community, as 
represented to us at that meeting and at that hearing, did not justify 
the granting of the permission, and, for that reason, it Avas refused. 
And I desire to state now that if it is the judgment of this committee 
that it is a question of what an individual group in some special 
locality of the District of Columbia Avants Avith respect to the use of 
its school building on Sunday, the board of education is prepared to 
grant that permit. 

We believe the question of Avhether these buildings should be used 
on Sunday or not is a broader question, and that it is a question of 
what a community of 350,000 to 365,000 people wants; and knowing 
their sentiment and knoAving their desire, and what they wish with 
respect to it, that that is the policy Avhich we are called upon to fol- 
Ioav, and that that is the source to Avhich we are to look to guide our 
action in respect to granting this permission. If we are wrong in 


60 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

that, the committee has only to say so or the community has only 
to say so, and the board of education is prepared to reverse its action. 
It has absolutely no pride or no personal policy; it is seeking to pro¬ 
mote no line of suppression, and no denial to the people of the 
buildings which belong to them, in any way. We have no such 
thought; but I say to you deliberately that it was the judgment of 
the majority of the board of education that the community, as a com¬ 
munity, considered as a whole, did not wish its school buildings 
opened on Sunday and, for that reason, the permit to use this build¬ 
ing on Sunday, which was the only request we have received for a 
permit for such use, was refused. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Are we to understand from your remarks that you 
based your refusal upon the wishes of the people of this entire com¬ 
munity—the entire city? 

Mr. Blair. It was my understanding that the community as a 
whole—350,000 people—did not want their school buildings opened 
on Sunday. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You mean the entire District? 

Mr. Blair. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You did not base your refusal upon the views of 
the people of that particular locality? 

Mr. Blair. This association, at that time, was asked how many 
members they had. They said from 200 to 250 members at that time. 
They are organized, and their constitution provides that until other 
forums are organized, any citizen of the District of Columbia may 
join their forum, and, if I am not incorrectly advised—and I do 
not want to make any misstatement, but I know you gentlemen will 
understand that it is difficult to hear—but my understanding of the 
remarks of one of the speakers here this morning was that 63 of 
their 250 members resided within the sphere of the Grover Cleveland 
community. 

Mr. Ragsdale. About how many residents are there in the Grover 
Cleveland community ? 

Mr. Blair. I have never made any examination as to that fact, but 
I should suppose that that is a pretty well populated section. The 
Grover Cleveland School is at the intersection of Eighth and T 
Streets, NW., and there is quite a densely populated section through 
there, and I should presume that if you took the radius suggested 
by this bill, you would gather up perhaps 10,000 people, or perhaps 
not over six or eight thousand. 

Mr. Ragsdale. So there are 63, out of approximately eight or ten 
thousand people? 

Mr. Blair. Some such proportion as that, if I heard the figure 
correctly. Now, that is the position of the school board. We be¬ 
lieve that this act of March 4, 1915, can be administered in exact 
accordance with the wishes of this committee, and there is no dis¬ 
position on the part of any member of the school board, whether 
they were in favor of granting this permit, or whether they voted 
against it. to refuse the public proper use of those buildings, or to 
seek in any way, or to claim or to pretend to have any control over 
those buildings that the law does not give them. Statements have 
been made in the public press that the attitude of the school board 
was the contrary. It is not the contrary. Our position is absolutely 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 61 


what the law means and what the people want, and it is onr obliga¬ 
tion to see that that is performed, and nothing else. 

Now, in this connection, in order to be justified or in order to be 
qualified to judge, to put it in proper form, what was being done, 
and what probable demand there was elsewhere, and what the gen¬ 
eral policy was with respect to this question of Sunday opening— 
because they could have had it on any week day by simply asking for 
it, and can have to-day or to-morrow by asking for it- 

Mr. ^ inson (interposing). They have that under the law, have 
they not? 

Mr. Blair. There is no question about it. 

Mr. V inson. It is not discretionary with the school board on week 
days ? 

Mr. Blair. I think not, sir; if they ask for the privilege. The 
privilege may be granted by the board upon such terms and condi¬ 
tions and under such rules and regulations as the board may pre¬ 
scribe. It says “ may be.” 

Mr. Vinson. You mean it is discretionary? 

Mr. Blair. If the purpose of the organization came within the 
purview of the language of the act, we would regard that it was not 
a question of discretion, but that it was a right that they had to use it. 

We made inquiry, and we found with respect to this question of 
Sunday use, from 45 cities to which inquiries were sent, as follows: 

THE USE OF SCHOOL BUILDINGS ON SUNDAY. 

Inquiries sent to 45 cities; replies received from 40 cities. 

Questions 4-5: Do you permit tlie use of school buildings on Sunday? If so, 
for what purposes? Twenty-four cities do not permit use on Sunday: Balti¬ 
more, Boston, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dallas, Denver, Detroit. Lowell, 
Lynn, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Nashville, New Orleans, Omaha, Oak¬ 
land, Philadelphia, Providence, Pittsburgh, Heading, Rochester, St. Paul, and 
Seattle. Two of these cities have given permits in the past, as follows: Roches¬ 
ter, for a Jewish Young Women’s Club; New Orleans, for a single lecture on 
civics. Six cities reply that question has not been up actively: Dallas, Detroit, 
Lowell, Lynn, Memphis, and Philadelphia. 

Sixteen cities permit use on Sunday, as follows: Birmingham, educational and 
nonsectarian Sunday school; Chicago, civic clubs, improvement clubs, etc.; Day- 
ton, choruses, churches temporarily out of homes; Des Moines, Sunday schools 
and other religious gatherings; Indianapolis (partial), Armenian Society—one 
Sunday per month; Jersey City, educational, philanthropic, or civic; Kansas 
City, betterment meetings for colored race: Los Angeles, general educational 
purposes only; Newark, lectures, concerts, or other purposes; New York, social 
activities; Portland, Oreg., religious purposes only; Richmond, sermons and re¬ 
ligious lectures; San Francisco, free municipal band concerts; St. Louis, by 
special permit of commissioner of buildings; Spokane, literary, scientific, re¬ 
ligious, political; Trenton, religious and moral meetings. 

Mr. Blair. Des Moines permits Sunda} T use of the schoolhouses for 
Sunday schools and other religious gatherings. I would like to see a 
permit issued here in the District of Columbia for a religious gather¬ 
ing. 

Mr. Vinson. What do you mean by that? 

Mr. Blair. I mean to say that my judgment is that the sentiment 
of the community is unanimous against such use of the building, and 
if the board undertook to grant such a permit, and did grant it, it 
would result in the abolition of the board. That is my judgment 
about it. I may be entirely wrong; that is my personal judgment. I 
might say also. What the attitude would be in the case of a church 



62 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


that was temporarily without a home, I do not know, but I mean for 
permanent use of that character. Now, we have been, with the utmost 
freedom of which we are capable, using all our public school build¬ 
ings for public purposes, under the terms of this act and under the 
supplemental educational purposes clause, and I have had prepared a 
statement showing the community use of public school buildings, as 
it obtains to-day. 

(The statement referred to appears in full below, as follows:) 

Community Use of Schools. 

WHITE SCHOOLS. 


Motliers’clubs and other parent-teacher associations_ 48 

Citizens’ associations_ 9 

Other civic and community associations_ 54 

Membership represented by above associations_ 9, 28G 

COLORED SCHOOLS. 

Mothers’ clubs and other parent-teacher associations_ 35 

Citizens’ associations_ 7 

Other civic and community associations_ 4 

Membership represented by above associations_ 3, 355 

TOTAL FOR ALL SCHOOLS. 

Mothers’ clubs and other parent-teacher associations_ 83 

Citizens’ associations_ 16 

Other civic and community associations_ 58 

Membership represented by above associations_12, 641 


Kinds of meetings included under the heading of “ Other civil and community 
associations ”: Branch public library, Peabody Library Association, Boy Scout 
organizations, dramatic clubs, girls’ athletic clubs, boys’ athletic clubs, alumni 
associations, social welfare clubs, Safety-First Organization, Bands of Mercy, 
Shakespeare Club, musical clubs, Girl Scout organizations, Community Singing 
Class, District Commissioner’s Orchestra, Audubon Society, Parliamentary Law 
Class, Social Center Basketry Class, Special Child Study Club, Modern Dancing 
Class, Rhythm Class, Orchestra Class, Story Club, Thrift Club, Social Welfare 
League, domestic science clubs, Reading Club, Study Club, Spanish classes, 
Women’s Gymnasium Class, domestic art classes, milinary classes, Library 
Reference Class, Class in Dietetics. 

Mr. Blair. We have gone as far as we felt we had a right to go 
for the purpose of giving to the community the fullest opportunity 
to use these buildings, to which they are entitled under the law. 

I want to say one other thing, and very briefly, if I may, and that 
is that the movement for the wider use of the school buildings origi¬ 
nated with the board of education more than six years ago, and I 
now read from the hearings on the District appropriation bill, 
briefly, for the year 1915, the hearings having been held in the fall 
of 1913 before the House committee. I will read extracts from pages 
315, 316, and 317 of the hearings, and I will simply say, briefly, that 
it is set out there that two years before those hearings were had we 
had asked for the broader use of the school buildings, using substan¬ 
tially the same arguments which Mr. Ralston advanced this morning, 
namely, that the community had $16,000,000, approximately, tied up 
in its school buildings and was only using them 50 per cent of the 
time and that there ought to be a broader and wider use of a plant 
involving that amount of investment, and the result of that has been 














COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 63 


the enlargement of the work along the lines I have already indicated 
to the committee. 

The board of estimate in its estimates transmitted this year to 
Congress, through the commissioners, in view of the act of March 4, 
1915, and with the certainty of a greater number of permits being 
asked and that we would need money for those purposes, made two 
requests of the Appropriations Committee, as follows: 

For purchase of fixtures and supplies for lighting and equipping school build* 
ings used as civic and social centers and for the extension of night schools and 
special activities, $3,000. 

For janitor service rendered in connection with the use of school buildings 
for civic and social centers and for extending the broader use of the school 
plant, at a rate not to exceed $2 per person per night. $600. 

We are watching this movement grow with all the care and all the 
caution and all the attention that we feel we owe to the Congress of 
the United States, as well as to the community we are trying to serve, 
but we did not feel at that time, and we do not feel now that Ave are 
in position to say to what extent the taxpayers of the District of 
Columbia ought to be involved in the support of this movement. We 
are asking for the money just as fast as we think it is right to ask for 
it—just as fast as we think the work justifies it. If Congress thinks 
we are going too slow and wants to give us more money and broader 
powers, the board of education is willing to accept them, but we be¬ 
lieve that the way these movements should grow in a community is 
by the development of the community itself. We have had just two 
applications for forums in addition to the Grover Cleveland appli¬ 
cation. One was from the colored teachers out here at Bennings, and 
when we ran that down we found they wanted to organize a parent- 
teachers’ association, and they got the permit. 

We are finishing a fine new building, which will be ready in the 
fall, out at Park View, and they have already said to us that when 
they get the building they want to use it for forum purposes, and 
we have not said them “ nay,” and there is no one in the District of 
Columbia who has an idea of saying “nav” to them when the appli¬ 
cation is made. That is the situation, gentlemen; and now I am 
readv to answer any questions that I can. 

Mr. Llovd. Your statement has been very complete. 

(The excerpts from the hearings before the subcommittee of the 
House Committee on Appropriations, in charge of the District of 
Columbia appropriation bill for 1915, which Mr. Blair asked to have 
inserted in the record, appear below, as follows:) 

USE OF SCHOOL BUILDINGS FOR CIVIC PURPOSES. 

Mr. Page. There is another subject relating to the school buildings in the 
District of Columbia that is not embodied in this bill but which is being agi¬ 
tated a good deal; and I would like to have an expression from the chairman 
of the board of education and from the other gentlemen present who are inter¬ 
ested, if they care to express themselves at all upon that subject, and that is in 
regard to the agitation in favor of opening the schoolhouses for various other 
purposes. 

Mr. Newman. I am very heartily and emphatically in favor of it. 

Mr. Blair. The situation in the board is this: That we have considered that 
we have gone just as far as we feel we can properly go under the law as at 
present in force in regard to the general use of the buildings. We shall regret 
any legislation that will put the buildings out of our control, but we would wel¬ 
come, I think, as a board, legislation that would permit a broader and more 
serviceable use of the school plant. 


64 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Mr. Page. Don’t you think that the opening of these buildings for certain 
lines of activity and for the meetings of certain organizations would be the 
opening wedge, or, rather, the first step toward a situation that would be very 
hard to control? 

Mr. Blair. Not if the power were given the board of education to indicate 
the lines on which the buildings might be used and to control the lines on 
which they might be used. * * * 

Mr. Siddons. I was going to ask Mr. Blair if the board of education did not 
officially recommend, a year or two back, with respect to a bill then pending, the 
enactment of a proposed law reserving to the board of education the authority 
to prescribe in any particular case whether or not the buildings should be so 
used ? 

Mr. Blair. That legislation was before the board and considered, and that 
was the reason I spoke about what I suspected was the attitude of the board 
of education toward the entire matter. * * * 

Dr. Davidson. I am gratified to hear Commissioner Siddons express himself 
so warmly in support of the movement to establish the open school house as the 
social and civic center of the District of Columbia. I believe there is no com¬ 
munity in the Republic which needs to have the schoolliouses opened to the 
extent this District needs to have them opened. All the arguments laid down 
can be repeated over and over again in many different phrases, but they all 
tend toward one thing, and that is the public schoolhouse as the social and 
civic center of the community makes for the development of broader and a 
better democracy. Such use is truly educative, not only in relation to the chil¬ 
dren who may be permitted to come when they are opened as recreation centers, 
but to the parents themselves, and in fact the whole community is benefited 
by the opening of the schoolhouse for such purposes. But it must be done under 
such restrictions as will insure the proper care of our school buildings; other¬ 
wise the schoolhouse might be diverted from its chief function, which is for 
the education of the children. The board of education and the school authori¬ 
ties in this city and elsewhere have been insistent that when the schoolhouses 
are opened they shall be under the control of the board of education. I want 
to go on record as being in hearty sympathy with this movement to open the 
schoolhouses for their use under wise and liberal restrictions. 

Mr. Page. What is the custom in other cities? 

Dr. Davidson. Just as I have outlined it. They leave it to the board of 
education to establish the rules and regulations governing the use of the 
buildings, and provision is made that the organization using the buildings shall 
pay for the services of the janitor and for any extra expense that may be in¬ 
curred in the use of the building. In that way the extra tax or expense does 
not fall upon the school authorities. 

Mr. Davis. I think the idea of opening the schoolhouse to such uses is gen¬ 
erally prevalent throughout the West and Northwest. 

Mr. Blair. We have a peculiar use for it here because we have practically 
no desirable public halls that can be used by reasonably small civic bodies for 
assembly purposes. 

Mr. Mapes. This law of March 9, 1915, did that meet the ideas of 
the board of education? 

Mr. Blair. We were working for it; recommended it; worked for 
it, and I think that it would have failed of passage, however, if it 
had not been for the assistance which we received from Miss Wilson 
toward the end of the session. 

Mr. Mapes. The specific question I want to get at—and’ perhaps 
you have answered it in a way which you think is definite—but do 
you think that is as broad authority as the board of education ought 
to have? 

Mr. Blair. We think that inasmuch as that did not restrict the 
board, and gives to the board the power to regulate and control, to 
let the buildings under such rules and regulations as they may pre¬ 
scribe, that that is sufficient. If the act is to be amended in the 
form suggested in the pending bill on which this hearing is being 
held, then I have nothing to say, except to suggest to the committee 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


65 


♦that here is a $16,000,000 plant which is being turned over for adult 
uses, and, if I may say it, our experience has not been entirely satis¬ 
factory as to the care which is taken of the buildings. If the build¬ 
ings are to be turned over for adult uses, and beyond our control 
after the organization has complied with the law—has been properly 
organized and formed—I do not find in it any provision which per¬ 
mits us to revoke a permit, once granted, or which permits us to 
cancel or to refuse the use of the building, so long as the organiza¬ 
tion has complied with the provisions of the law as to its organiza¬ 
tion and starting. 

Mr. Vinson. Suppose the bill were so amended in that respect as 
to give you the right, after the building has been used as a forum, 
and proper care has not been taken in its use, upon those facts com¬ 
ing to your attention, to revoke the permit; would that eliminate any 
objection the board has to the passage of the bill? 

Mr. Blair. I do not think the board has any particular feeling, 
one way or the other, about the general proposition that is here 
involved. 

Mr. V inson. Then the committee is justified in concluding that 
the board is absolutely neutral on the issue? 

Mr. Blair. I am speaking for myself, personally. 

Mr. Vinson. I am asking you personally. 

Mr. Blair. So far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to 
accept the bill with some modifications. 

Mr. V inson. Now, what are those modifications? 

Mr. Blair. I have never seen the bill, as finally drafted, until 
about half-past 10 o’clock this morning. There is this substantial 
consideration with respect to the janitors. They are not compen¬ 
sated, and we have no power to compensate them, and there is a grave 
question if they are to be made to work seven days a week when the 
rest of the community works six days. The janitor service is com¬ 
pensated, under the provisions of the bill, but we have no right to 
compensate them now. We provide the compensation for them now 
by saying to applicants: “Yes; you may use the building, if you 
will take up a collection of $2 to pay the janitor.” 

Mr. Grosser. This bill provides for that ? 

Mr. Blair. Yes. 

Mr. Vinson. You mean the regular janitors, during the week? 

Mr. Blair. Yes; but it does not settle the question whether these 
men. from November to April, although they are supposed to be on 
an eight-hour day, shall go to the building in some instances as early 
as 5 o’clock in the morning and in the majority of instances as early 
as 6 o’clock, and who are staying there until 5 or 6 o’clock at night, 
and, with the night use of the building that is now permitted, staying 
there until 11 or 12 o’clock at night; it does not settle the question 
whether those men, simply because they are going to get two or four 
dollars more, are going to be compelled to work at night. 

Mr. Vinson. Then, if it were discretionary with the janitors 
whether they should accept this additional employment with this 
additional compensation, that would eliminate the objection you 
have to the bill ? 

Mr. Blair. If it were left in such a situation that we could compel 
the janitor to work—we do not want to take one janitor from one 

38523—16-5 


66 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

building and put him in charge of another building simply for the 
purposes of the forum meeting. This applies now only to Sundays— 
what we are discussing. 

Mr. Vinson. You addressed your remarks a few moments ago to 
the man working late in the evening. 

Mr. Blair. Yes. We say to these organizations, “ You must raise 
$2 to pay the janitor.” 

Mr. Vinson. That eliminates that objection, if that is provided for 
in the bill? 

Mr. Blair. Yes. 

Mr. Vinson. Now, take it on Sunday; would it eliminate any ob¬ 
jectionable features in the bill to say to the janitor who works six 
days a week that it w is discretionary with him whether he shall work 
for this additional compensation or to have the forum employ some 
one else to put the building in suitable condition for use Monday 
morning ? 

Mr. Blair. I do not think that the wise administration of school 
buildings would justify the employment of an outside janitor. 

Mr. Vinson. That is probably true. 

Mr. Blair. Or to turn over the care of a school building for any 
length of time to some one who was not directly responsible, to who¬ 
ever was in charge of the building. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you know, Mr. Blair, of any fraternal, social, or 
commercial organization that would permit the turning over of a 
vast amount of property, such as is contemplated in this bill, to a 
minority anything like that proposed in this bill ? 

Mr. Blair. I should say “no” to that; but I would be perfectly 
willing to make the experiment myself, personally, if Congress 
wanted it. 

Mr. Vinson. You do not really believe that any harm would result 
to the buildings if this bill should pass, do you? 

Mr. Blair. I do not think any harm would result from 95 or per¬ 
haps 99 per cent of the use of the buildings; but I am not justified in 
answering your question “ no ” from previous experience. 

Mr. Vinson. And that 1 per cent—have you any suggestion by 
which that could be cared for in the bill ? 

Mr. Blair. I want to say about this, that it is not a fair argu¬ 
ment against the bill. Please do not misunderstand me there, be¬ 
cause that 1 per cent of misuse may just as likely happen under the 
privileges for which we grant it on a week day as on Sunday. 

Mr. Vinson. I understand. 

Mr. Blair. That is not a fair argument against the bill. 

Mr. Crosser. The bill really provides that the supplying of the 
janitor service shall be done by the board. 

Mr. Blair. Yes. 

Mr. .Crosser. It certainly provides a certain sum of money to be 
used as compensation for janitors already employed for additional 
service or for additional work. 

Mr. Blair. The situation is such that there are some buildings 
and some plants where we would not care to turn over—and under 
the bill we must turn it over, if we have designated it. There are 
some practical difficulties and objections, but those are not things 

that I would care to discuss with the committee, because if we are 
* 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 67 

to do it we want to work it out, and we will do the best we can to 
work it out; but there are practical difficulties, and if I may be 
allowed to say so, there is a very practical one in this executive 
secretaryship. 

There is not ony teacher in our school system upon whom a 
greater burden is cast than our eighth-grade teachers; there is not 
any teacher who ought to be relieved from work outside of what the 
school system already casts upon her more than the eighth-grade 
teacher ought to be relieved; and yet this bill, in its present shape— 
and I am not criticizing it, because is seems to me a logical wav in 
which to have it drawn, and I was present at the meeting of the 
American Civic Association at which this matter was discussed, and 
at which Miss Gale, if I remember her name aright, read an origi¬ 
nal story which she had prepared for that particular meeting, show¬ 
ing how the school-teacher was the natural and logical executive 
secretary, and the one who must be always selected and made secre¬ 
tary of these forum movements, whether she wanted to be or not, 
and that she had time to do all these things, which no one else in 
the cummunity could attend to, which is perfectly true in some in¬ 
stances—maybe it is true in a rural community almost always, but 
it is not true in our public schools in the District of Columbia; in 
the first place, our eighth-grade teachers do not live, but with rare 
exceptions, within the radius of the community over which they 
would be made executive secretary; they do have contact with 
the children of the community, and, through the children, with the 
parentage of the community, but they do not live there, and they 
must make a trip home after school, and then a trip back at night, 
and then another trip home late at night after they have done the 
very hardest kind of work in the school system all day long. They 
avoid that in the bill by saying that these eighth-grade teachers may 
designate some one else. There are some very practical difficulties 
here; it might happen that in a given building you would not have 
the teacher who had the capacity to be an executive secretary, and 
yet you have to make the teacher in that particular building the 
executive secretary—the person who really is responsible for the 
strength and growth and development of the movement—and yet 
that teacher must be made the executive secretary, although she may 
not have the capacity to be an executive secretary; or else we will 
have to take somebody that the forum says they would like to have 
made executive secretary, and the principal designates that person, 
and then into the custody of that executive secretary, foreign to the 
control of the board of education, goes the control of our school 
building for whatever time the forum is licensed to use it with the 
utmost freedom. 

If it were an established movement, if we understood it, if it were 
not experimental, if it had not been abandoned in one or two places 
where it has already been started, if it were a matter that had been 
worked out. or if we had had an opportunity to take this bill and dis¬ 
cuss it and to look through it, and if our opinion had ever been asked 
on it by anybody, we would have been in a situation, then, perhaps, 
to have answered some of these questions as to the details of the bill; 
but the general proposition is and the attitude of the board is that 
if we are expected to administer this bill, or some similar bill, we 



68 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

shall take it up in the spirit of being something that it is incumbent 
upon us to administer. 

Mr. Lloyd. If we would ask you to do so, Mr. Blair, would the 
school board furnish us an opinion of the merits of this bill, and on 
the changes that might be made in order to perfect it, within a 
week ? 

Mr. Blair. We will be ver}^ glad to do so, sir, if it is asked. 

Mr. Lloyd. We would be very glad to have it. 

Mr. Blair. We would much rather have the hearing completed, 
and then see whether it is desirable. 

Mr. Lloyd. The hearings will be completed, but we give } T ou the 
leave to submit that, and that will appear as part of the hearing. 

Mr. Vinson. You made some statements a few moments ago in 
regard to the executive secretary that would be created by this 
forum, and stated that in some of your schools you may not have 
teachers competent to fill that kind of a position. Is the committee 
justified in concluding that you have teachers in the Washington 
public schools who could not perforrp the duties of an executive 
secretary ? 

Mr. Blair. The committee is not justified in concluding that we 
have not a competent body of teachers, but it is a far different propo¬ 
sition from being the executive officer of a lodge or of a Sunday 
school class, or of an organization of any kind, or a church or frater¬ 
nal or beneficial organization—being a school-teacher in the eighth 
grade. 

Mr. Vinson. But are not the duties of a school-teacher executive 
in their character? 

Mr. Blair. Not of this character, however. Perhaps, however, I 
am not competent to answer that, because I do not know anything 
about what the duties of the executive secretary will be. 

Mr. Ragsdale. In your various schools, I presume you have white 
teachers who would dislike to act as the executive secretary of negro 
meetings, have you not? 

Mr. Blair. I do not think we should reach a situation where that 
would be possible: we would probably be legislated out of office for 
high crimes and misdemeanors. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yet. under the terms of this bill, that is possible? 

Mr. Blair. I think that is true. 

Mr. Vinson. That is very far-fetched. 

Mr. Crosser. Is it possible to have the teacher nominate some one 
to take her place? 

Mr. Blair. Suppose there is no teacher in the building who is 
really competent for the position? 

Mr. Crosser. What position? 

Mr. Blair. Executive secretary. Suppose there is no teacher in 
the building competent for the position of executive secretary—and 
mv experience has been that anybody can organize, but it takes some¬ 
body who knows their business to be an executive secretary, and that 
is where the whole thing depends for its go. Suppose we have no 
teacher in a given building who possesses the qualities necessary to 
make a good executive secretary. Then, the nomination must be of 
somebody, either outside of the building or outside of the school 
system, and that person is the person who, then, under the terms of 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


69 


this bill, becomes responsible, Avitli no direction, no hold, no power 
to employ or discharge, but still the person in charge of the school 
building. 

Mr. Grosser. All the executive secretary would have to do would 
be to engineer this meeting, and if the school board is only con¬ 
cerned with the children, what difference would it make to it what 
failures these organizations might be? 

Mr. Blair. I do not think, if the organizations are to be failures, 
that we should have spent the time that we have spent on them 
already. 

Mr. Grosser. You are only concerned with the children? 

Mr. Blair. No; we are concerned, until Gongress changes the 
situation—we are very much concerned with the administration *of 
the buildings themselves—the physical plant. 

Mr. Grosser. Yes; but presumably the janitor looks after the 
actual physical condition. 

Mr. Blair. He looks after the cleaning. 

Mr. Grosser. I do not like to approach this from the standpoint 
of personalities, or what one man, broad minded or narrow minded, 
might do under the present terms of the law in using his discretion, 
but what do you think of the general principle involved in the bill 
that the people should be allowed to determine themselves when they 
should use the buildings, not impugning your motives or your high 
standard of education, but just as a general principle? 

Mr. Blair. My personal conviction about the matter is not of the 
slightest consequence in the administration of this law. 

Mr. Grosser. But T want to get your views. 

Mr. Blair. I am perfectly willing to give you my personal com 
viction, if that is what you want. 

Mr. Grosser. Yes. 

Mr. Blair. I was born in Xew England and T believe in the New 
England Sabbath just as much as I did when I was born, and that is 
an atmosphere I will never get away from until I am dead—and 
probably not then—but so far as the administration of this law is 
concerned my personal conscience has nothing whatever to do with 
the way that it should be administered. 

Mr. Grosser. No; but we are considering what the law is to be. 
Of course, you are to administer the law. 

Mr. Blair. It is not a question of what T personally think about 
it—whether I would or would not join one of "these forums—but it is 
a question of what the community of Washington, consisting of some 
350,000 people, and not the Grover Cleveland school district of some 
63 people, want done on Sunday. 

Mr. Vinson. Are you informed as to the opinion of all the people 
of Washington with regard to this matter? 

Mr. Blair. As far as I have been able to learn. 

Mr. Vinson. How have you gathered your information? 

Mr. Blair. By talking with my fellow citizens every time I meet 
them. 

Mr. Vinson. Do you think that is a proper way in which to reach 
a conclusion as to the feeling of a community, by just merely the 
statement of 3.000 or 4,000 people that you may come in contact with, 
on the question of how the Sabbath should or should not be con¬ 
ducted or observed ? 


70 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Blair. The basis of this whole movement is the fact that the 
individual is to have his rights; that is what we have heard and had 
drummed into our ears for months while this thing has been under 
consideration, and I do not know any way to find out what an indi¬ 
vidual thinks except to ask him. 

Mr. Vinson. Ask him at a public meeting. 

Mr. Blair. We had a public meeting. 

Mr. Vinson. Do I understand, then, that you are of the opinion 
that the people of the city of Washington are opposed to a forum 
of this kind being open on Sunday ? 

Mr. Blair. I do not know about a forum of this kind; but I do 
not believe the people of Washington, as a people—and I am ready 
to change my view if you can convince me in any practical way—but 
1 do not believe that the volume of enthusiasm which is behind this 
movement amounts in citizenship to more than 10,000 people. 

Mr. Vinson. That may be true, because great measures oftentimes 
have not as much enthusiasm behind them as the Charlie Chaplin 
show has on Ninth Street Sunday afternoon; but can you say that 
the people of Washington are opposed to a public forum, where the 
public may discuss any public topic in the schoolhouse on Sunday ? 

Mr. Blair. My present judgment is that the people of Washing¬ 
ton are opposed to opening their schoolhouses on Sunday. 

Mr. Vinson. For any purpose? 

Mr. Blair. For any purpose; and my judgment is subject to re¬ 
vision at any time that I can be convinced to the contrary. The Cali¬ 
fornia law has been quoted to you as a model law, and left here. 
Section 3 of that law reads: 

The management, direction, and control of said civic center-shall be vested 
ip the board of trustees or board of education of the school district. Said 
board of trustees or board of education of the school shall make all needful 
rules and regulations for conducting said civic center meetings, and for such 
recreational activities as are provided for in section 1 of this act; and said 
special board of trustees or board of education may appoint a special super¬ 
vising officer, who shall have charge of the grounds, preserve order, and pro¬ 
tect the school property, and do all things necessary in the capacity of a peace 
officer to carry out the provisions and the intents and purposes of this act. 

So there seems to be some limitation on the free use of public build¬ 
ings, even in the State of California. 

Mr. Vinson. Just to get it into the record. T will state that there is 
some objection from some religious worshipers at Takoma Park 
against the use of these buildings, for fear that religion will be dis¬ 
cussed on Sunday there. Did you take those objections into con¬ 
sideration when you were reaching your conclusion? 

Mr. Blair. May I answer that? T have not a thing that I do not 
want to tell this committee. , 

Mr. Vinson. That is what I have asked you for. 

Mr. Blair. We are told by the gentlemen who are organizing or 
who have organized the Sectarian League that they are delighted 
with the prospect of this forum, because it is nothing in the wide 
world but what they have been conducting for 15 years in rented 
quarters, and they would like to get into a school building. We are 
told by the gentlemen of the organization to which you have just 
referred that the Sunday question ought not to enter" into the con¬ 
sideration of this matter at all. We are told by people of various 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


71 


religious faiths—both sides of the same question—I have not found 
yet any people of any given religious faith who have not differed on 
this proposition, if you are going into the religious phase of the 
question. I have many of my acquaintances, whom I think are of 
limited religious belief, if I may put it that way, who have taken 
exactly opposite views of this same question. I am trying to get 
the sentiment of the community. 

Mr. Vinson. You find that some people are objecting to it because 
they are fearful that religion will be discussed and some who are 
anxious for it because they think that religion will be discussed? 

Mr. Blair. The specific objection on the ground of religion—that 
is. that the forum might be used for religious purposes—has not yet 
come to my attention. 

Mr. Vinson. Suppose it should be made so that the buildings 
could not be used for religious purposes; would the board of educa¬ 
tion then have any objection to it? 

Mr. Blair. That question has never occurred to me, that the lan¬ 
guage of the act of March 4, 1915, would permit the use of these 
buildings for religious purposes. It says “ the free discussion of 
public questions.” Now, religious questions have not occurred to me 
as “public questions.” I may be wrong in my interpretation, but 
that thought had never entered my mind. T had not supposed that 
the particular point to which you are addressing yourself had entered 
into the matter in any way. 

Mr. Mapes. I want to ask you a question. Mr. Blair, in regard to 
this Sunday matter. This bill provides, I understand, that they 
could use the schools on Sunday for the promotion of education of 
the youth, and you say that objection is raised on the part of a large 
majority of the people of the District or of the city. Will you tell 
me for my own information how do you account for the way in 
which they take to this string of shows from Seventh to Ninth Street 
on Sunday? 

Mr. Blair. I have not gone into that. I think a very small pro¬ 
portion of the community, when you take them as a whole, will be 
found on those streets on Sunday. 

Mr. Mapes. You are an old resident here, and have been here for 
many years, and you think that a large majority of the people of this 
city do not want the schools used for any purpose on Sunday? 

Mr. Blair. That is my present judgment. 

Mr. Lloyd. Gentlemen, the committee will stand adjourned until 
10 o’clock to-morrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 4.45 o’clock p. m.. the committe? adjourned until 
to-morrow, Thursday, April 13, 1916, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 


Committee on The District of Columbia, 

House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C., April 13 , 1916. 
The committee this day met, Hon. Ben Johnson (chairman) pre¬ 
siding. 

Mr. Johnson. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Blair. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a correction in 
connection with some of my remarks of } 7 esterday. I was informed 



72 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

immediately after the meeting yesterday that the Grover Cleveland 
neighborhood, according to the police census, comprised about 18,000 
people. I said during the hearing 10,000 to 15,000. I believe that 
was incorrect. An examination of the rolls of this forum shows 
that there are enrolled at the present time 212 members from the 
neighborhood which this forum would reach. I said 63. I desire 
to make that correction. • 

Mr. Lloyd. Can you give us some idea of the territory taken in? 

Mr. Blair. They told me that it would be within 5 squares. That 
would mean, consequently, 21 squares—5 squares in every direction 
from the building. Out of 4,000 whites residing within that radius 
of 5 blocks from the Grover Cleveland neighborhood, 216 have re¬ 
quested the use of the building for the Sunday afternoon forum. 
The attendance at the forum at public libraries and museums has 
been from 500 to 1,000 people. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you imply by that that the rest are against it? 

Mr. Blair. I simply desire to make this statement, that my figures 
given yesterday were incorrect. 

Mr. Lloyd. It was understood yesterday that the first speech 
made in opposition would be within reasonable limits. After that, 
as nearly as practicable, the speeches are to be not longer than 5 
minutes. 

STATEMENT OF MR. ROY C. CLAFLIN. 

Mr. Johnson. Will you please give your name, residence, and busi¬ 
ness, and state whom you represent ? 

Mr. Claflin. I have given that on a card to the secretary. I 
represent, I may say, the opposition to the bill. I investigated this 
question as a member of the board of trade committee on public 
schools. 

The Chairman. You may have given that information to the re¬ 
porter, but we want to know who you are. 

Mr. Claflin. I am president of the Columbia School of Drafting, 
and I will say that I am also a teacher in the public schools. I am 
not here in the capacity of teacher, however. I am here as a tax¬ 
payer and a member of thfe board of trade. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you represent the board of trade? 

Mr. Claflin. Not officially. I represent the opposition to the bill. 

Mr. Johnson. By whom were you designated as representative? 

Mr. Claflin. By a certain group of- 

Dr. Johnson ^(interposing). And of whom is that group com¬ 
posed ? 

Mr. Claflin. Various men who are to speak against the bill. 

Dr. Johnson. And who are they? 

Mr. Claflin. Perhaps Dr. McMurray can give me some assistance 
in this respect. Perhaps he can give some additional names. I will 
mention the names of those whom I can remember. There was Dr. 
Wilfley, Dr. Craft, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Lorch, Mr. Arnette, and some 
others whom I do not know. Dr. McMurray could probably give you 
additional names. 

I will say that I entered on. the consideration and study of this 
question in an entirely unprejudiced attitude of mind as the chair¬ 
man of the committee on public schools of the board of trade. As 
I say, I do not represent the board of trade officially this morning, 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 73 

as the board of trade has not taken action, although the committee 
has. The committee is opposed to this forum bill. I was asked to 
piepare a statement and to be ready to present it to this committee. 

We made a study of the so-called Johnson forum bill, and studied 
it particularly with reference to what the effects would be if put into 
practical operation, in comparison, especially, with the present law. 

The Chairman. Was your analysis of the bill based upon the 
amended bill or on the bill as it was originally drafted ? 

Mr. Claflin. Do I understand the committee has made some 
amendments ? 

Mr. Lloyd. This committee has not, but those favoring the bill 
have agreed upon certain amendments. 

Mr. Claflin. I propose to discuss the bill as it now stands. 

Dr. Johnson. ^ ou do not propose to treat the question of amend¬ 
ments at all? 

Mr. Claflin. I would be glad to do that, too. 

Mr. Lloyd. I think it is safe to say that the committee will accept 
the amendments if it adopts the bill, because the principal amend¬ 
ment, or the only one that amounts to anything, is in reference to 
giving authority to the board of education instead of to the com¬ 
missioners. 

Mr. Claflin. All right. I shall proceed on that assumption. 

I shall have to say something of the bill as it now stands. I will 
take that into consideration. As I understand it. the only change is 
that it transfers the designation power to the board of education in¬ 
stead of leaving it with the commissioners. 

Judging from the splendid array of talent on the other side yes¬ 
terday, it would seem that there could nbt be any opposition to this 
bill. We have heard some very excellent speeches from prominent 
people, and we applauded them, because they enunciated democratic 
principles, in which we all believe. I contend, however, that the 
question before the committee is whether the Johnson bill should be 
made a law and whether it would be a wise law in comparison with 
the law that now exists. I contend that that is the point at issue 
before the committee. 

The splendid speeches that were heard yesterday were devoted to 
praising the forum idea in general and the right of the people to come 
together and discuss questions. I contend that is not the question to 
be settled, and therefore if this were a court all of those speeches, or 
practically all, would have to be ruled out of the evidence, because 
they do not go to the point at issue. 

Mr. Lloyd. I think you are mistaken about that. I think that 
Miss Wilson very forcibly brought out the difference. 

Mr. Claflin. I said “ practically all.” 

Mr. Johnson. I suppose that means for all practical purposes. 

Mr. Claflin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Johnson. Your idea is that the bill is impracticable? 

Mr. Claflin. My contention is that the arguments were not to the 
point at issue and therefore were impracticable. In other words, we 
are not discussing here the question whether the forum idea is a good 
thing or not, or whether the people have a right to use the schools 
for this purpose, but we are discussing the question whether this 
forum bill is going to be a better law than the one under which we 
are operating now. Therefore, I say that I believe the majority of 




74 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

the speeches missed the point at issue, although they were splendid 
speeches. I will say now that we did not make organized preparation 
for this. Some of us happened to come together on this question. TV e 
are not prepared with a special array of talent. I might say, also, 
that I believe one reason why a great many do not turn out is that 
they feel that the bill will not come to a vote. 

Mr. Johnson. As I understood it, you said that you represented a 
committee of the board of trade, and now you say that you just hap¬ 
pened to come together. 

Mr. Claflin. The fact is that we happened to come- 

Mr. Johnson (interposing). Is this just a “happening” organi¬ 
zation ? 

Mr. Claflin. I will say that we did not call in any special number 
of people. 

Mr. Johnson. How many happened to get together? 

Mr. Claflin. I did not count them. 

Mr. Johnson. Well, how many would you say happened to get 
together. 

Mr. Claflin. I do not believe I could say. 

Mr. Johnson. How many happened to come together at the time 
you indicated that they happened to come together ? 

Mr. Claflin. There has not been any organization at all of the 
opposition, but we happened to come together yesterday at this 
hearing. 

Mr. Johnson. Who did? 

Mr. Claflin. The men that I know. 

Mr. Johnson. About half a dozen? 

Mr. Claflin. Perhaps mbre than that. 

Mr. Johnson. Perhaps more than that? 

Mr. Claflin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Johnson. How many more than half a dozen? 

Mr. Claflin. I don’t know that I could say. 

Mr. Johnson. You know how many happened to be together. 

Mr. Claflin. I did not count them. I would say six or a dozen. 

I think that the burden of proof rests upon the proponents of the 
bill. They must prove that the forum bill is a desirable piece of leg¬ 
islation and that it will be a better bill or a better law than the pres¬ 
ent one. 

My argument will be to show that it will not be a better law than 
the present one and that it is not a desirable piece of legislation. I 
wish to say that I do not desire to have any remarks that I shall 
make construed as reflecting on the personal motives or public spirit 
of any of those who are in favor of this bill. I believe that they are 
taking this stand because they think this is best for the public inter¬ 
ests, and I give them credit for the work that they are doing along 
this line. They should be praised for that work. Of course, we all 
have, in a way, the right to discuss matters and express our opin¬ 
ion, so, I say again, that I do not wish any remarks that I may 
make to be construed as reflecting on the personality of these persons. 
These are merely my opinions. In investigating this question I went 
into the thing very thoroughly, and I have here a statement of the 
facts—a fundamental analysis of the bill—with certain conclusions. 
If you will permit me, I will read these. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 75 

In the first place, I desire to call attention to the bill under which 
the board of education is operating- at the present time. This was 
passed on March 4. 1915, and is entitled “An act to regulate the use 
of public-school buildings and grounds in the District of Columbia.” 
It reads as follows: 


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United 
States of America in Congress assembled . That the control of the public schools 
in the District of Columbia by the board of education shall extend to. include, 
and comprise the use of the public-school buildings and grounds by pupils of 
the public schools, other children, and adults for supplementary educational 
purposes, civic meetings, for the free discussion of public questions, social cen¬ 
ters, centers of recreation, playgrounds. The privilege of using said buildings 
and grounds for any of said purposes may be granted by the board upon such 
terms and conditions and under such rules and regulations as the board may 
prescribe. 

Sec. 2. That the board of education is authorized to accept, upon written 
recommendation of the superintendent of schools, free and voluntary services 
of the teachers of the public schools, other educators, lecturers, and social 
workers, and public officers of the United States and the District of Columbia: 
Provided, That the teachers of the public schools shall not be required or com¬ 
pelled to perform any such service or solicited to make any contributions for 
such purposes: Provided further , That the public-school buildings and grounds 
of the District of Columbia shall be used for no purpose whatsoever other than 
those directly connected with the public school system and as further provided 
for in this act. 

Sec. 3. That all laws or parts of laws in conflict with this act be, and the 
same are hereby, repealed. 

It will be noticed that this bill empowers the board of education 
to grant the use of the school buildings and grounds when it sees fit. 
At the present time there are over 100 associations, with a total mem¬ 
bership of between 12,000 and 15,000 people, using the school build¬ 
ings by permission of the board of education for various purposes, 
such as civic, educational, dramatic, musical, etc. This shows that 
the public is being given the full benefit of the privileges intended 
for them by Congress through the board of education. 

The Johnson bill, then, is not necessary. It was drawn and intro¬ 
duced as a result of the refusal of the board of education to permit 
the use of school buildings on Sunday when this was requested by a 
certain group of persons. 

Mr. Lloyd. Was this bill introduced before the trouble came? 

Mr. Claflix. It was after the board had been asked but before the 
board had taken action. 

Miss Wilson. It was introduced after the board had indicated that 
it would refuse permission but before it had done so. 

Mr. Claflix. Mr. Ward can give us some information on that. 

Mr. Ward. In the recommendation of the superintendent, which 
was contained in the report of the board of education last year, cer¬ 
tain additional legislation- 

Mr. Lloyd. You are now taking the time of Mr. Claflin. 

Mr. Ward. I want to answer your question. 

Mr. Lloyd. We had better permit Mr. Claflin to proceed. He can 
answer. 

Mr. Mapes. I would like to ask a question just at this point. Is it 
your understanding that this bill was the outgrowth and result of 
the action of the board of education in refusing the use of the schools 
on Sunday? 



76 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Mr. Claflin. As I understand it, the direct cause was the refusal 
to let the schools be used on Sunday. 

Mr. Vinson. From what source do you get that information? 

Mr. Claflin. From a discussion of the question with members of 
the board of education. 

Mr. Vinson. Prior to the passage of the act of March 4,1915 ? 

Mr. Claflin. I am not talking about that one. 

Mr. Johnson. You said this act of March 4, 1915, was the out¬ 
growth of that. 

Mr. Claflin. Then I made a mistake. I meant the pending bill. 

Mr. Johnson. I see. 

Miss "Wilson. May I make a correction? The legislation was pro¬ 
posed before the board had acted, but the action or legislation was 
the result of the refusal of the board. It is the opinion that such 
legislation is necessary everywhere, and that opinion is based on 
principle and experience. 

Mr. Claflin. The final refusal of this request was based on the 
fact that the persons making this request failed to produce a legiti¬ 
mate showing that their demand was backed by the people generally. 
In other words, the board of education was convinced after a public 
hearing on the question that there was not sufficient demand for the 
Sunday use of schools to justify putting the public to the expense of 
heating schools on Sunday and requiring the janitors to work seven 
days a week without rest, besides innumerable inconveniences and 
expenses. The members of the board of education took this stand 
believing that they were best performing a public trust reposed in 
them, and they deserve the praise and gratitude of the public for 
fearlessly and courageously doing what appeared to them their duty 
to the people of the community in the face of opposition. 

The board of education has at the present time sufficient authority 
to grant the use of schools on Sunday, in addition to week days, if 
the public realty desires it, as is now granted, and President Blair, 
of the board, has made it clear that any time the demand is property 
demonstrated this use will be granted. It happens that the only 
request which has been made of the board for the Sunday use of 
schools was’presented by only four persons, none of whom lived in 
the neighborhood of the school in question, and who, under the John¬ 
son bill, could not qualify for membership in that forum, and they 
did not even present a petition signed by any other persons backing 
up their request. 

Mr. Lloyd. Where did you get that information? 

Mr. Claflin. From the members of the board of education. 

I will ask Mr. Blair whether I am clear in that statement? 

Mr. Blair. I did not hear the statement. 

Mr. Lloyd. State it again. 

Mr. Claflin. I said that it happens that the only request which 
has been made of the board for a Sunday use of schools was pre¬ 
sented by only four persons, none of whom live in the neighborhood 
of the school in question, and who under the Johnson bill could not 
qualify for membership in that forum, and that they did not even 
present a petition signed by any other persons backing up their 
request. 

Mr. Blair. The only communication, as I remember it, was from 
Mr. Driscoll. He was notified that there was to be a hearing. There 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 77 

were several speakers. Dr. Jackson happened, to be passing through 
the city. He was interested in the movement and appeared before us. 
I am not sure just who was at the public hearing. 

Mr. Lloyd. Did you understand that Mr. Driscoll was representing 
the Grover Cleveland Society? 

Mr. Blair. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lloyd. Then the statement would be incorrect that nobody 
was understood to be present except- 

Mr. Blair (interposing). Those were people who appeared to 
present the application of the community itself. 

Mr. Johnson. How long have you known Dr. Jackson? 

Mr. Blair. I never saw him until that day. 

Mr. Johnson. You referred to him as passing through the city. 

Mr. Blair. Yes, sir; that is what he said, that he happened to be 
in the city. I understand that he is a prominent educator. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you know whether he has resided in the District 
of Columbia or not? 

Mr. Blair. Not so far as I have any information. I do not know 
but that he may have been here this winter. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you know what portion of his time he spends 
here ? 

Mr. Blair. From a statement he made to that board it might be 
inferred that he stays in the District for a portion of the winter. 

Mr. Johnson. He was not called upon to explain his familiarity 
with conditions here ? 

Mr. Blair. He explained his interest, I suppose, but only as he 
thought there was occasion to explain it. 

The Chairman. You do not mean to imply, then, that the oppor¬ 
tunity for gathering information as to conditions here was obtained 
upon this particular day when he was passing through Washington? 

Mr. Blair. If you want my own impression, it is that Dr. Jackson 
was in no sense a resident of the District of Columbia and had made 
no investigation to ascertain the sentiment of the people of the Dis¬ 
trict of Columbia. 

The Chairman. And your impression further is that the only op¬ 
portunity to get information concerning the conditions here was upon 
that date when he was passing through the city? 

Mr. Blair. My impression was that he had made no effort to un¬ 
derstand local conditions, and that he was merely presenting his 
views with regard to the general proposition as a consideration and 
reason why Sunday should not be used as a forum day. 

Mr. Johnson. If he had opportunities to get information other 
than on this particular day he was passing through the city, you 
are misinformed? 

Mr. Blair. I do not mean to say that this was a day that we 
caught him between trains, or anything of that sort. I think per¬ 
haps he had been in the city a week or 10 days. 

Mr. Johnson. Your two statements that he was passing through 
the city did convey to me the impression that he had no other op¬ 
portunity to know the conditions existing here. 

Mr. Blair. I got the impression that he was addressing himself 
to the general proposition, to the extent to which he thought it was 
necessary to outline his experience at that time. 


78 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Mr. Claflin. My impression was that there were only four per¬ 
sons. I do not know whether he represented an association, and I 
do not think that makes much difference, because there are between 
6,000 and 10.000 people in this community. 

Air. Mapes. Where does Mr. Driscoll live? 

Mr. Claflin. I understand that he did not live in the immediate 
vicinity of the Grover Cleveland School. 

Thus it will be seen that the board of education did not have suf¬ 
ficient grounds for believing that the demand was important. 

The following points tend to show that the Johnson bill is not 
desirable or fair: No provision is made either permitting the super¬ 
intendent of schools or the school principal, who are directed by 
this bill to assist in the organization of these forums on Sunday, or 
any other time they may choose to hold their meetings, to exercise 
his or her discretion as to whether he or she prefers not to engage 
in secular work on the Sabbath day. The}^ would be compelled by 
law, regardless of their conscience, to perform this work on Sunday, 
if the Johnson bill were enacted into law. We are always raising 
the question of liberty. Therefore, I say that we should permit 
these people to exercise their discretion and conscience as to whether 
they want to work on Sunday. This bill forces them to work on 
Sunday. 

Mr. Lloyd. What requires them to do that? 

Mr. Claflin. In case the forum meets on Sunday the executive 
secretary is required to be present. 

Mr. Lloyd. That is one person who is required to be present. If 
he has any compunctions of conscience, he need not accept the posi¬ 
tion. 

Mr. Claflin. The bill says that the board of education shall 
direct- 

Mr. Lloyd. If that person has any compunctions of conscience, he 
can so state. I am trying to impress upon you the idea that there is 
nothing in that point. The only person affected by the matter is the 
executive secretary. It would not be much trouble for the executive 
secretary to avoid the possibility of having to work on Sunday. 

Mr. Claflin. How would you have him avoid that? 

Mr. Lloyd. By resigning his position. 

Mr. Claflin. Oh. I see. 

Mr. Johnson. Let me ask you what penalty this bill imposes on 
one who does not work on Sunday? 

Mr. Claflin. I do not understand that it imposes a penalty. 

Mr. Johnson. Suppose he does not have to serve? 

Mr. Claflin. The bill proposes he shall serve. If it does not, then 
the bill is not strong in its provisions. 

Mr. Johnson. I suppose the weaker it is the better it will suit you. 

Mr. Claflin. No provision is made giving the janitors the right 
to refuse to work on Sundays. They now work hard six days a week 
at small salaries. The Johnson bill would require them to work on 
Sundays, and makes no legal provision for their being paid anything 
at all for this extra work. I understand the proposed amendment 
takes care of the janitors so far as the salary question is concerned. 
While the bill provides that payment for janitor service shall be 
made by the board of education out of funds already appropriated, 
it has been ruled that this can not be done legally, which leaves no 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 79 

provision for payment for the janitor service. An officer of the 
janitors’ union has stated that even if this provision were in the bill 
they would be very much opposed to working on Sundays. He con¬ 
tended that the janitors must have one day of rest. The janitors’ 
union has declared that the Johnson bill violates all the principles 
of unionism, and they have been backed up in their stand by the 
Central Labor Union. 

The bill fails to make qualifications as to the character of the 
applicants for use of public-school buildings. The commissioners 
are not permitted by this bill to exercise their judgment as to who 
shall be allowed the use of the schools. This may be an extreme case, 
but so far as the provisions of the bill go. a band of ruffians may 
demand the use of the school building, and the commissioners would 
be required by law to grant it to them. Then the principal of that 
school, even though she prefer not to associate with that group of 
persons, would be compelled by law to be present and assist those 
men to organize. It could easily happen, and probably would in 
some cases, that *20 or more men who are authorized to make applica¬ 
tions for the use of schools would be colored persons, and the prin¬ 
cipal might be white. The bill seems to be very lax in its pro¬ 
visions or in its lack of proper provisions. 

Mr. Lloyd. Will you state what part of the bill gives authority to 
a band of ruffians? 

Mr. Claflin. I said it would be an extreme case, but I think, so 
far as the provisions of the bill are concerned from the legal stand¬ 
point, they could not turn anybody down. 

Mr. Vinson. They could not turn the building over to anyone. 

Mr. Claflin. Perhaps I had better take part of that answer back. 
As I understand it, they can meet there and organize. They meet 
before they organize. 

Mr. Vinson. You apprehend danger from a meeting of ruffians? 

Mr. Claflin. I simply said that from a legal point of view that 
would be possible. Of course, it would be an extreme case. 

Mr. Lloyd. It might be possible, but not probable. 

Mr. Johnson. Speaking from a legal point of view, if a band of 
ruffians came in and acted in a ruffianly manner, where would your 
police be? 

Mr. Claflin. I do not believe the bill says anything about the 
police. 

Mr. Johnson. Never mind the bill. Is there not a law in the 
District of Columbia to control such a situation ? 

Mr. Claflin. I suppose the police would be on hand to take care 
of it; yes, sir. 

Mr. Johnson. Then your apprehensions on that score are un¬ 
founded, are they not? 

Mr. Claflin. A band of ruffians may get together and they may 
organize for ruffianly purposes. 

Mr. Johnson. If a band of ruffians should come, as long as they 
behave themselves they should be permitted to stay, just as bad men 
often go to church and are converted while there. 

Mr. Claflin. Perhaps that would be a good idea. 

Mr. Vinson. Would it be a bad thing for ruffians to go there? 
That would have a tendency to benefit mankind. 


80 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Claflin. I believe it would be a good idea. I am not oppos¬ 
ing the forum idea. I believe it is all right. It is a good idea. 

Mr. Johnson. What is the main point of your objection, then? 

Mr. Claflin. I am giving them to you as fast as I can. 

Mr. Johnson. I mean the .main point? 

Mr. Claflin. The point at issue is that the Johnson bill is not fan’ 
and is not desirable. 

Mr. Johnson. In what respect? 

Mr. Claflin. In the main respect that it does not give any discre¬ 
tion as to whether they shall meet on Sunday. I do not think it is 
fair that they should require that principals or superintendents 
should do this work when they have other duties to perform. 

The Chairman. I would like to ask you whether or not you think 
the act approved March 4, 1915, has worked well or not? 

Mr. Claflin. So far as I understand, it has worked very well. 

Mr. Johnson. That bill does not mention Sundays and neither 
does the one under consideration at present. 

Mr. Claflin. It says that in case it is desirable to use the schools 
on Sunday it can be done. This bill gives power to use them on 
Sunday. That is why we say this bill is now sufficient. 

Mr. Lloyd. It has that privilege. So far as authority is concerned 
they have that authority now, have they not? 

Mr. Claflin. Yes. That is why I say the Johnson bill is unneces¬ 
sary. 

Mr. Johnson. It is not bad, but unnecessary? 

Mr. Claflin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Vinson. In other words, you do not want any more legisla¬ 
tion on this particular subject; is that right? 

Mr. Claflin. That is partly it. I think the bill has other objec¬ 
tions besides that. 

I wish to call attention to the fact that in the Johnson bill the 
secretary of the forum may be in charge of the school building even 
during school hours and he need not be in any way connected with 
the school system, and, therefore, not responsible to the board of 
education, which, however, will still be held morally and legally re¬ 
sponsible for the condition of the school building. Also, no pro¬ 
vision is made that the principal of the school shall have authority 
over his or her own building to compel order on the part of the boys 
or girls or adults who may be using the building for recreation and 
training and other activities. 

Mr. Lloyd. Who is it that is not responsible? It says, designated 
by the superintendent, and yet you say he is not responsible. 

Mr. Claflin. My idea is that that principal, in all probability, 
would designate some one suitable to the forum people. 

Mr. Lloyd. And that person would be satisfactory to the principal 
and would be responsible to the principal and would carry out the 
will of the principal. 

Mr. Claflin. Morally, I think that is true, but I do not think that 
the bill provides that that should be the case. 

Mr. Lloyd. Perhaps it is not necessary to provide that. 

Mr. Claflin. Well, that is another question that will adjust itself 
in the actual working of the law. 

The bill compels the board of education, the superintendent of 
schools, and the principals of schools to perform a great many addi- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 81 


tional and exacting duties. It is well known that our school officers 
have at the present time sufficient to do to fully employ their time. 

Mr. Lloyd. \ on say that the executive secretary would have no 
authority or power. Under the bill he can direct the activities, and 
if there is anything going on that is wrong that executive secretary 
has the power under the bill to correct the wrongdoing. 

Mr. Claflin. My contention is that the school building will be 
in charge of the executive secretary at the time. As I understand it, 
the community center activities may be held at any time, and that 
means that they could be held during school hours. Therefore, they 
would, in all probability, respect the order of the school and there 
would be no trouble. My point, however, is that the bill should make 
sure of prohibiting the use of the school hours for recreational pur¬ 
poses, and so on. 

Now, all this additional work is proposed for what purpose? To 
grant to the people something they do not now have? Not at all. 
They already have the privilege of using the school buildings at any 
time they so desire, except on Sundays. The use on Sunday can be 
granted, and will be granted, by the board of education at any time 
there is a universal demand for it on the part of the local citizens. 
On this da} 7 those who desire to hold secular meetings for the dis¬ 
cussion of politics and other public questions now have the privilege, 
as is being demonstrated, of meeting in other buildings than school- 
houses, such as the Public Library. These other buildings are heated 
on Sundays anyway, and, therefore, why should the public be re¬ 
quired to pay the expense of heating their school buildings on Sun- 
clay for the benefit of a handful of citizens? 

Mr. Lloyd. Why do you make a statement that only a handful of 
citizens attend? 

Mr. Claflin. I say comparatively a handful. 

Mr. Lloyd. According to the testimony before this committee, the 
attendance has run from 500 to 1,000. If you have read the news¬ 
papers, why do you make a statement of that kind ? 

Mr. Claflin. I am referring now to the last two meetings. I un¬ 
derstand that about 200 people were present. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you call 200 people a handful ? 

Mr. Claflin. Comparatively speaking. 

Mr. Lloyd. Then all the churches in the city have a handful of 
persons in attendance. 

Mr. Claflin. Of course. I am not discussing the churches now. I 
am discussing whether we should have the schools heated on Sunday, 
and not the churches. 

No restrictions are written into the bill as to the conduct of the 
members of the forum. While we would not readily believe that 
these meetings would not always be peaceful, at the same time we 
read in the papers of the recent riotous forum meetings in the schools 
in New York City. In one instance the members of the forum saw 
fit to rearrange the pictures on the wall of the school and hung an 
objectionable picture for the pupils to contemplate. This resulted, 
very naturally, in a fuss between the forum members and the princi¬ 
pal of the school. 

Mr. Lloyd. Where was that? 

Mr. Claflin. In New York City. 

38523—16-6 



82 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Johnson. Not in the District of Columbia? 

Mr. Claflin. No, sir; not in the District of Columbia. 

The Johnson bill does, however, provide that the board of educa¬ 
tion shall spare no expense in making things comfortable and con¬ 
venient for the members of the forum. As matters now stand, our 
local board of education prohibits smoking at the meetings held in 
the public schools and has the authority to make any other needful 
regulations. 

Mr. Johnson. Is that literally true, that there is a provision in 
the bill that they shall spare no expense? 

Mr. Claflin. It is to the effect that they shall make all necessary 
provisions for the favorable use of the school buildings. 

Mr. Vinson. Can they spend a dollar that the Congress does not 
give them for that purpose? 

Mr. Claflin. I do not know how Congress is going to appropriate. * 

Mr. Vinson. Then why do you say that, if you do not know? 

Mr. Claflin. Because the bill does not say that they can not- 

Dr. Johnson. Don’t you think, as an attorney- 

Mr. Claflin. I am not an attorney. 

Dr. Johnson. Do you not think, then, as a reasonable man, that 
they can spend only that money that is given by Congress? 

Mr. Claflin. That is why I am arguing against the bill. 

Dr. Johnson. But you have stated that the}^ are not limited as to 
expense. 

Mr. Claflin. That they shall spare no expense. Of course, they 
can not go beyond the appropriation. Of course, the board of edu¬ 
cation can not go beyond that. It is understood that they can not 
spend money that was not appropriated, but it says they shall spare 
no expense as far as the appropriation goes. 

The Chairman. Then, you modify your statement to that extent ? 

Mr. Claflin. Yes, sir; I modify it to that extent. 

You will recall that the bill provides, in the next to the last section, 
that the board of education shall request Congress to grant money to 
cover the carrying out of the provision in regard to forums. I do not 
know whether there is any limit as to the amount they shall ask for. 

It is up to Congress how much it shall grant. That is why I say they 
would not necessarily be limited. 

The expense of each meeting, as proposed by the Johnson bill, 
would be $18 for secretaries’ salaries, besides the cost of heating, light¬ 
ing, and other items, which could easily run the expense for each 
meeting up to $25. These meetings can be held once a week or 
oftener, which would mean that the expense for one school would 
run to about $100 per month. Ten schools would be designated for 
forum use upon the passage of the Johnson bill. Thus the expense 
would be $1,000 per month. After the first year any number of 
schools may be designated. Assuming that onlv 25 schools would 
thus be called into forum service, and if the popularity of the forum 
idea is universal, that number of schools will be insufficient to accom¬ 
modate the meetings, the average expense would be not less than 
$2,500 per month, or $30,000 per year. That is for forum meetings 
only. Community center meetings may be held in addition to these 
only once a week, though they may be held every day, so far as the 
bill provides. This would run the expense to $00,000 per vear, on 




COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


83 


the basis of 25 schools being used. The probabilities are that more 
than this number would be taken advantage of. Are the taxpayers 
as a community willing to bear this additional financial burden for 
the benefit of the persons who would want to use our schools on Sun¬ 
day? As a business proposition, do we as business men and tax¬ 
payers subscribe to it, bearing in mind that it is asked of us for a 
purpose that is already sufficiently served ? 

The citizens associations of the District of Columbia have been 
declared by our commissioners to be the proper medium for the ex¬ 
pression of public sentiment. Do these associations ask the tax¬ 
payers of the community to pay their expenses? They would be ridi¬ 
culed if they did. Is there any logical reason why a new set of organ¬ 
izations should be financed by the public to supplant these public- 
spirited associations which now serve the very purpose of the forums ? 
That is what the Johnson bill proposes to do. 

I have endeavored to show that the so-called Johnson bill is not 
necessary, not desirable, not fair, not businesslike, and therefore not. 
wanted. 

Mr. Johnson. Through Mr. Vinson, a member of the committee, 
Mr. C. C. I Lancaster has sent to the committee a written communica¬ 
tion. Heretofore the committee has found it necessary to refuse to 
receive communications from Mr. Lancaster, and the committee has 
heretofore adopted this resolution: 

Whereas one C. C. Lancaster caused to be transmitted to this committee a com¬ 
munication which questioned the innate chastity of the female teachers and 
pupils of the local public schools by leaving the inference to be drawn from 
said communication that said female teachers and pupils could, under certain 
intimated pressure, consent to become objects of lust, and at the same time 
unwarrantedly reflected upon the integrity and decency of the Commissioners 
of the District of Columbia; and 

Whereas the committee directed the chairman of the committee to return said 
communication to said Lancaster; and 

Whereas said Lancaster thereupon caused another communication to be smit to 
the committee, which in substance reiterated the objectionable statements 
contained in the former communication, and in addition thereto was offensive 
to the committee: Therefore be it 

Resolved, That the committee in the future decline to hear said C. C. Lancas¬ 
ter at any hearing to be held by the committee or any subcommittee thereof. 

In accordance with this resolution this communication will be 
returned to Mr. Lancaster. 

Mr. Claflin. One more point. The point has been brought out 
heretofore that the people should have control of the schools and not 
the board of education. I contend that the people of the District of 
Columbia are represented by the board of education, and the fact 
that the people are back of the board of education was thoroughly 
demonstrated in the early part of the session, when a certain bill 
came up for consideration and various organizations practically 
backed up the board of education. 1 believe that the board of edu¬ 
cation does represent the people of the District of Columbia, and 
that it is officially recognized by Congress itself. I think the board 
is more representative of the people than the people of a paiticulai 

communitv. . , 

In conclusion, I would like to ask this question: W hat is to be 
gained by this proposed bill that we do not have under the present 

law ? 


84 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Vinson. What harm can this proposed bill do? 

Mr. Claflin. That is hardly an answer to my question. 

Mr. Lloyd. We are not here to answer questions. 

Mr. Claflin. Then, I would like to make the statement that I can 
see no advantage whatever to be gained by the proposed bill. We 
would get nothing that we do not have now. 

STATEMENT OF REV. DR. JOHN McMURRAY. 

Dr. McMurray. I want to say to the committee that I have given 
this matter a great deal of study for a period of 20 years or so. I 
come here to oppose this Hollis-Johnson bill, even in its modified 
form, unless there are certain amendments making it more specific 
than it is at the present time. It is, in my opinion, altogether too 
general. In the first place, the mandatory feature is still there in 
regard to the 20 persons getting the use of any school building. I 
think that is a very objectionable feature. 

Mr. Lloyd. Would you want a less number than that? 

Dr. McMurray. I do not believe that I would want any number 
specified at all. I do want to say that I believe if a public-school 
building is to be opened in any section at all, it should be opened by a 
majority vote of the persons in that particular section. We have, 
as we all know, a Government where the majority rules. If a public- 
school building is to be opened in a particular section, you want to 
get the people within a radius of half a mile to vote on this question. 
I say that it should be a majority of the people who live there. I believe 
that this should be expressed by some form of vote. I understand, 
of course, that the bill has been somewhat modified. I think it was 
a little unfair to modify it at such short notice without giving us 
more of an opportunity to adjust ourselves, but I suppose we will 
adjust ourselves to the modified form. 

Mr. Lloyd. You will accept that amendment? 

Dr. McMurray. But still there is the objection to that provision 
in regard to the 20 persons who may make this request in writing 
when you do not specify what kind of persons they shall be. You 
do not specify the class, kind, or race. That objection is still there. 
As I said before, if a public-school building is to be opened, I think 
it should be opened by a vote of the majority of the people within 
the radius prescribed there. 

The second feature is this community-center idea. That is open to 
abuse. 

Mr. Johnson. Will you please explain what you mean by your 
reference to race? 

Dr. McMurray. I mean this: The question was raised yesterday 
afternoon, and it can be raised again under the present bill, even 
in its modified form, that 20 persons, whether black or white, have a 
right to go and ask for a school building, whether that building is 
now occupied during the hours of instruction by white people or 
black. There is nothing in the bill, as I see it, to specify who shall 
ask for and who shall receive the use of the public-school building. 
It is all right to say that these things will adjust themselves, but 
we have not any positive assurance that they will adjust themselves 
in a democracy where everyone has a right to speak. Every person 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 85 

is equal in a democracy, and I do not think that we can truthfully 
say that these matters will adjust themselves. We can not base 
such a statement upon anything that has happened in the past. As 
democrats, with a small u d,” we will ask for more things in the 
future than we have in the past, and there is no reason why a man 
with a black face should not ask for as much as a white man. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you object to his right in that respect? 

Dr. McMurray. I am not objecting to his right in that respect. 
1 am merely saying that in involves a grave question and brings about 
a very difficult situation. He can be one of the twenty to ask for the 
use of a public school building in the District of Columbia. 

Mr. Johnson. Would you fix it so that he could not be one of the 
twenty ? 

Dr. McMurray. I would not say just that. I would fix it so that 
the number would be greater than twenty. I would fix it so that 
it would be a majority of the people within that radius of a half 
mile. I think a majority of the people within that radius should be 
the ones who should determine the use of the building. 

Mr. Johnson. Would you exclude anybody of that race? 

Dr. McMurray. You can not exclude any race in the District of 
Columbia. 

Mr. Johnson. Would you have the bill so framed? 

Dr. McMurray. I would say that perhaps it would be a good idea 
to confine the use of the school building for forum purposes to the 
same class of people who use it during the day. 

Mr. Johnson. The same class or race? 

Dr. McMurray. The same race. 

Mr. Vinson. Might not the fact that it is limited to 20 serve to 
eliminate a mixed audience? 

Dr. McMurray. I do not believe in the idea of allowing 20 people 
to force the District Commissioners or the board of education to 
open a public-school building to the people. I do not believe that 
20 people should have the right to force it, 

Mr. Crosser. You say they have the right to force it? 

Dr. McMurray. Under this bill they have. 

Mr. Crosser. Suppose I say that upon a petition of 20 persons 
the board of education shall submit a question to the people of a 
certain neighborhood as to whether or not they shall have an organi¬ 
zation, will that give them the right ? 

Dr. McMurray. The bill does not say that. 

Mr. Johnson. In my State of Kentucky we have had for a num¬ 
ber of years a law relative to selling intoxicating liquors. There 
has been a provision for a number of years in that law that a vote 
might be taken in any county whenever 20 citizens of any voting 
precinct presented a petition/ Upon the same principle, would you 
advocate that those 20 people should have the right to procure that 
vote? 

Dr. McMurray. The 20 persons should have the right to petition 
and have the matter submitted to a vote for that particular section. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is not that the effect of the provision here ? 

Dr. McMurray. I do not think that it will work itself out in 
that way. It does not require, as I understand it, that the matter 
shall be submitted to a vote. 


86 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Lloyd. These 20 persons may petition, and at the meeting 
every voter in the District of Columbia may appear. 

Dr. McMurray. He may appear. 

Mr. Lloyd. Well, there is no law that requires his appearance 
anywhere. There is no law that requires any individual to vote. In 
many localities there are a great many people who never vote. 

Dr. McMurray. That is true. If you want to get an expression 
of the popular will you have to have a majority vote. We do not 
make laws very largely by the minority; it is the majority vote that 
prevails, of course. 

Mr. Crosser. Well, does not the majority determine whether or 
not there is to be a forum ? 

Dr. McMurray. I do not think that it follows necessarily. 

Mr. Grosser. The majority have an opportunity. 

Dr. McMurray. Certainly. 

Mr. Crosser. Would you be in favor of disfranchising some of 
these citizens? 

Dr. McMurray. It does follow that the majority of the people 
ought to have the right to express the will of the people. 

Sir. Vinson. After 20 people in the community, within a radius 
of a half mile, petition the board of education, the board of 
education submits it to the people within a certain radius. Is not 
that a reasonable bill? Why does not everyone have an oppor¬ 
tunity to express disapproval, if it is desired to do so? 

Dr. McMurray. Let me read from the Johnson bill: 

That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Commissioners of 
the District of Columbia by not less than twenty adult persons residing within 
a radius of one-lialf mile of a public-school building designated by the said 
commissioners for use as a community forum, the said commissioners shall 
define and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must reside 
to entitle them to membership and participation in an association of adult 
persons to use as a community forum a public-school building designated by 
the said commissioners for that purpose. 

It dees not say that it shall be submitted to a majority vote or 
anything of that sort. 

Mr. Crosser. Suppose they do not organize? 

Mr. Vinson. Suppose an invitation is extended to the people, and 
they come and say that they do not want to organize, but that they 
want to do something else on Sunday? Does that kill the petition 
of the 20 people? 

Dr. McMurray. No, sir; because the 20 people have the right to 
ask for the use of the building, and it must be opened. 

Mr. Vinson. Just for that one meeting. 

Dr. McMurray. That may be the meaning of the bill, but I do not 
think it specifies that. 

Mr. Grosser. Would you be satisfied if it did specify that? 

Dr. McMurray. I think that it is up to the majority of the people 
to decide when a public-school building shall be opened in a particu¬ 
lar section. 

Mr. Vinson. Would you be willing to submit the prohibition ques¬ 
tion along the same lines? 

Dr. McMurray. I do not think that this has any bearing on that 
question. I submit that you have here another proposition entirely, 
and that the proposition of prohibition is an altogether different one. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 87 


If you can submit it to the people in the same way, I do not know 
that there would be any objection to it. However, that is not the 
proposition at all in the District of Columbia. Congress makes our 
laws, and we have to abide by the laws it makes. 

Mr. Vinson. Well, I want to get into the record your views. Are 
you in favor of submitting this question to a majority of the people 
in a given territory? 

Dr. McMurray. Yes, sir. Of course, I think you are asking me 
a question that has not any bearing on this subject that is under dis¬ 
cussion. If you ask me to state a principle, I will say that I think 
the majority should rule in the District of Columbia, and that we 
have a perfect right to control our own local affairs. 

Mr. Vinson. Following out that same theory, the people here, in* 
your opinion, are entitled to a referendum on prohibition or any 
other legislation? 

Dr. McMurray. I would have a referendum on every question, not 
merely prohibition. 

Mr. Vinson. That is not the point. 

Mr. McMurray. That is the point at issue in the District of Col¬ 
umbia. I do not think we should have referendum on one subject 
and not a referendum on all subjects. I do not think that you should 
single out one subject for referendum and ignore all the rest. This 
matter of Sunday forums and community centers is just as vital in 
the way of the welfare of the people of the District as are some of 
these other subjects. If you will allow all these things to be submit¬ 
ted, I think it would be all right. 

Mr. Vinson. In other words, you do not want to submit one unless 
you submit all? 

Dr. McMurray. No. 

Mr. Vinson. Are you willing to have the prohibition problem sub¬ 
mitted to the entire Nation? 

Dr. McMurray. I am willing that prohibition be submitted. I 
am only saying that it is not fair to submit one subject and not sub¬ 
mit another one. 

Mr. Johnson. Suppose you should make all your laws for your¬ 
selves ? 

Mr. McMurray. I think w T e should do that. I think that we are 
intelligent enough to decide the things we want. That is one reason 
I have been objecting to this community forum proposition as it is 
before us. I do not think it is a question that should be decided by 
20 people. Twenty people have the right under the bill. 

Mr. Crosser. Twenty people have only the right to have the ques¬ 
tion submitted. 

Dr. McMurray. But your bill does not say so. It does not say so 
on the face of it. It does not state that in specific terms. 

Mr. Vinson. Suppose we fix that. That will eliminate that trouble. 

Dr. McMurray. The second objection is the fact that there is a 
section which provides for a community center, which is different 
from a community forum. A community center is liable to abuse, 
There should be some restrictions placed upon the recreations and the 
amusements to be furnished in public-school buildings. I do not care 
to take up the time of the committee by offering illustrations of that 
fact, but there has been an abuse of public-school buildings when they 
were supposed to be used for that purpose. I can recite one instance. 


88 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

It occurred in the town in which I lived before I came here. The 
public school was being used for dancing purposes. The classes in 
the high-school and even in the eighth grade used it for dancing 
purposes. The dances were attended at first by members of the 
senior classes, but after a short time invitations were issued to out¬ 
siders. You can see how that came about. Here was a young woman 
who wanted to dance with a young man who was not in the senior 
class, so she issued an invitation to the dance. Likewise, there were 
a number of young men who issued invitations in the same way, and 
it soon reached the point of abuse, because after a while there neces¬ 
sarily had to be a number of people who came in who should not have 
been there at all. There was no one to chaperon them, or anything 
of that kind. After a while, as I say, it grew to be a matter of abuse. 

Mr. Vinson. I suppose, too, that it would be likely to get into 
competition with the public dancing schools. 

Dr. McMurray. The janitor told me that the rooms of the school 
were used for purposes for which they should not be used. It seems 
that it was possible for the young men to get keys, and sometimes 
liquor was brought in there. 

Mr. Vinson. Haven’t you a law in the District of Columbia to 
prohibit the use of intoxicating liquors at public gatherings? 

Dr. McMurray. Not yet. We may have after a while. 

Mr. Johnson. Your recital of this instance is merely to emphasize 
the fact that there are exceptions to all rules. 

Dr. McMurray. I think that we should provide against these 
things wherever possible. 

In the third place, we might object to the forcing of the expense 
of carrying on these recreation centers and community forums upon 
the taxpayer. 

Mr. Crosser. If it is such an easy matter to get these keys, and so 
on, in the instance you referred to, what would stop them from get¬ 
ting the keys whether there is a community center or not? 

Dr. McMurray. I want to tell you that that is one of the reasons 
why we should be so guarded about the use of the public-school build¬ 
ings. If you teach the people that the school buildings belong to 
them and that every man has a right to go into a school building 
whenever he chooses, I think we will get into trouble. A man gets the 
idea that he has just as much right as anybody else to go into a 
public-school building. He thinks that he has as perfect a right to 
go into a public-schol building as he has into his own home. 

Mr. Grosser. You are in favor of the strictest kind of local self- 
government, and you want to confine the use of these buildings to 
the people in the immediate neighborhood. 

Dr. McMurray. That may be true. 

Mr. Grosser. Your theory is that it is a local matter and that 
they should be confined to the smallest community. Do you believe 
in the public-school system at all? 

Dr. McMurray. I certainly do. 

Mr. Grosser. Do you realize that in the city of Cleveland, which 
is the city from which I come, that I pay, perhaps, for the education 
of children in a distant part of the city, probably 6 miles away? 
Do you think that is a bad thing? 

Dr. McMurray. No, sir; I do not. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 89 


Mr. Grosser. Why do you believe in public education at all? 

Dr. McMurray. You force me to go into things that I do not 
want to go into or say anything about. If you want me to answer 
that question, I will say that I believe in a democracy with a small 
“ d,” so far as the Government is concerned. I believed in a repre¬ 
sentative democracy, but so far as the action of man to man is con¬ 
cerned, I believe in pure democracy. I was about to say that if a 
pure democracy is to be desired, every man has a voice in the 
government. In a democracy, more than any other place, that voice 
should be trained to speak in the right way. Now, the public school 
is the place where that voice finds an opportunity to express itself 
in the right way. My objection to the community forum is that it 
allows to go into our public schools and discuss the fundamental 
questions of our Government the very people who have had no train¬ 
ing in democracy. 

Mr. Grosser. I thought that was a good scheme for the training 
of democracy. 

Dr. McMurray. It may be a very fine theory, but I do not think 
it works out so well where an untutored man from Russia may break 
into the forum. It is a very fine theory, but if you want to have 
democracy you have to get at it through the A, B, C, method. 

Mr. Crosser. Who shall pass judgment as to those who are en¬ 
titled to vote? 

Dr. McMurray. May I suggest to the Congressman that he is 
bringing up a question that is not before us? I think that comes up 
under the heading of immigration and the illiteracy test. You are 
raising that question now, as to who shall be admitted into this 
country. 

In other words, if we could have the old town meeting back again, 
there would not be any question at all about this matter. But we 
have the right to object to the coming of people here and having the 
right of free discussion in our public schools, who do not know the 
elementary principles of our democracy. In other words, we want 
to avoid incidents like that which occurred the other day at the 
Washington Irving School in New York City, where some one was 
anarchist enough to exclaim, “To hell with the Stars and Stripes.” 

Mr. Grosser. Would you prohibit the holding of public meetings 
because one man had said something that was not in accordance 
with the views expressed by another man? 

Dr. McMurray. I would not want to submit our people to the dan¬ 
gers that are likely to come as the result of expressions of people who 
do not understand our form of government. 

Mr. Vinson. Do you not find that the schoolhouse is the best place 
for the inculcation of true American ideals? Where can you find a 
better place than the schoolhouse? 

Dr. McMurray. I have given this question considerable study, and 
I think that in this Government of ours we find the highest type of 
democracy, and that is because we have a public-school system which 
begins with the child in the kindergarten period of instruction. That 
is the reason why we have the high type here. You do not have it 
anywhere else. 

Mr. Crosser. If that is true, why not extend the public-school sys 
tern to the heads of families, who are men of great responsibility, and 



90 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

let them go there and exchange views and be instructed by one an¬ 
other ? 

Dr. McMurray. You have night schools at the present time, whose 
purpose it is to instruct. 

Mr. Crosser. You may feel perfectly competent to instruct me and 
I you. We should be perfectly willing to listen to each other. 

Dr. McMurray. Yes, sir; that is true. 

The public school has for its purpose the instructing of our boys 
and girls. When I came before the board of education—if I may be 
permitted to state some facts that were brought out at that time—I 
stated that one reason why we are opposed to the Sunday forum was 
not necessarily because it was held on Sunday afternoon, but we op¬ 
posed the opening of the public schools, or public-school buildings, for 
this purpose, because that was the only matter up for consideration at 
that time; but I think the statement was made that we did oppose 
the Hollis-Johnson bill on other grounds, and one reason why we did 
oppose the opening of the public-school buildings on Sunday for these 
purposes was that it would interfere with our congregations at church, 
and things of that kind. We did believe in keeping the schoolhouses 
open all during the week, but we thought, and do think, that on Sun¬ 
day they ought to be closed, and the day, the Sabbath Day, given over 
to Almighty God. We think there ought to be some chance to get 
the people into the churches for the purposes of Sunday worship. 
There were other reasons—economic reasons—that we wanted to 
discuss. 

The Chairman. We have been taking up your time, Mr. McMur¬ 
ray. Every member of the committee has a perfect right to ask you 
any question he pleases, and you have been very kind in answering 
these questions; and the statement I made a moment ago is to indicate 
that we want to get through as soon as possible. 

Mr. McMurray. I want to say here that there is no class of people 
in the whole world who is more interested in the welfare of the peo¬ 
ple, Who is more interested in the maintenance of a democracy, who 
is more interested in the rule of Demos, than are the clergymen. 
Yon probably would not take that statement at its face value right 
off. in view of the general attitude toward the clergy; but, notwith¬ 
standing the jibes that are constantly aimed at the members of this 
profession, that statement is true. There is no class of people on 
God’s green earth more interested in the welfare of humanity than the 
clergymen. Sometimes we do things through mistake; sometimes 
we do things that do not seem to inure to the benefit of the people. 
But we have a whole-souled interest in the people. We do not get 
paid, for the most part, for the work we do. We get a small pit¬ 
tance, just enough to live on. The only reason we are in the work 
is because we have the interest of the people at heart, and working- 
in the interest of the common people. That has been the history of 
the church ever since the foundation of America. 

The work we do assists in making the purest possible democracy. 
Democracy must not be based upon economical principles only. 
There is something more to it than that. There is something more 
to life, especially to life in a democracy, than merely getting a place 
to live in. to get food to eat, to get clothes to wear. There is some¬ 
thing higher than that. And it is for those higher things in life 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IX THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 91 


that we, the clerg 3 mien, strive in our efforts to uplift the people. We 
maintain that a democracy can not reach its highest efficiency merely 
in cultivating the ability^ to accumulate dollars. That sort of effi¬ 
ciency alone does not make a democracy. That is not life. There 
is something more to democracy than that, something more than mere 
economic efficiency; there is what we may term the Christian de¬ 
mocracy, if you please. 

I am not insisting upon the word “ Christian,” because I believe 
the Hebrews have developed a democracy. What we .are aiming for 
is the very highest Christian democracy. There is something more 
in this world than discussing questions of wages, hours of labor, 
what to wear, what kind of house to live in, or even the kind of 
government we shall live under. There are higher considerations 
than that. There are considerations into which the soul enters. 
The things that have to do and are connected merely with the body— 
those things alone are not all there is to discuss.^ There are other 
things, higher things. It is our business, the business of us clergy¬ 
men, to stand for the things that develop the spirituality, the high 
morality, and the soul life of the system. 

That is a thing to be cultivated. We can not reach the highest 
democracy until we attain that standard. First, we must recognize 
that as a standard, and then work up to it. I say that on Sunday 
we should turn to those things. 

Sunday is the day of all days when men should get together and 
learn about the higher things and worship the Giver of them. 

If we had our way about it, this day would be set aside when almost 
every man in the community would have an opportunity to come in 
and study these things of the soul, of the spirit, these things that 
make for the highest development of manhood and womanhood. 

We stand against any proposition that will lower the standard; 
and if, as we think, as we firmly believe, the opening of the school- 
houses for a Sunday forum, to discuss all sorts of questions not 
connected with this higher life will result in a lowering of these 
standards, then. I tell you, gentlemen, we are against opening them 
for this purpose. 

Mr. Focht. Is there anything here that prohibits you from doing 
that? Is there anything in this bill that prohibits you from dis¬ 
cussing those higher things? 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. I will tell you. In the public schools re¬ 
ligion as a topic may not be discussed—by common consent. This 
is generally understood. The Bible may be read, but its text may 
not be explained. That is generally understood. No tenets of 
Christian religion can be taught in the public schools at the present 
clay. Now, gentlemen, what you can not do in the public schools on 
a weekday you can scarcely do on Sunday. And, consequently, you 
have to confine the topics discussed in such a community forum to 
topics of a general character, topics touching upon the economic 
conditions of life, topics of sociology, and other topics on the same 
general class of subjects. You can not touch upon religion at all. 

Mr. Vinson. I will state to you that some objection has been inter¬ 
posed here that religion will be discussed in the schoolhouses. 

Mr. McMurray. That is just exactly it. We understand that re¬ 
ligion can scarcely be discussed in our public-school buildings. The 


92 COMMUNITY FOBUMS IX THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


principles of religion can not be discussed during the week. The 
only day in the week that the schoolhouses can be used for that pur¬ 
pose is Sunday. 

Mr. Focht. There was a case up in Massachusetts where there was 
a riot at one of these public meetings, at one of these community 
forums, and it was necessary to call out the militia to suppress it. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. Now, gentlemen, you can not discuss these 
questions on Sunday in the public-school houses. You can not touch 
upon that subject in our schoolhouses. You can not discuss certain 
ethical questions, because ethics is more or less concerned with re¬ 
ligion. 

Mr. Crosser. Then it would not be practicable to discuss any ques¬ 
tion that did not have something to do with chemistry or physics. 

Mr. McMurray. Not necessarily chemistry or physics. It might 
be economics. 

Mr. Grosser. That is the highest form of ethics, in nry opinion. 

Mr. McMurray. In your opinion? 

Mr. Crosser. Yes. sir. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. Let me make this further statement, that 
the Nolan bill, which was discussed at the public forum in the 
public library last Sunday, calls for a minimum wage under the 
Government of $3 a day. 

Mr. Grosser. You can not say that there is any connection between 
that and religion, can you? 

Mr. McMurray. You will see, when I finish my statement, that there 
is a connection. It is more important that a man shall know how 
to spend his money than it is that he shall have $3 a day to spend. 
Very few people know how to spend. People have to be educated 
up to that. I might give a man $5 a day, and if he did not know 
how to spend it. it would be a curse to him. 

I believe in the contention of the Government clerks, and I be¬ 
lieve that they should have a short workday. 

Mr. Crosser. What do you believe in? 

Mr. McMurray. As a da} r ’s work ? 

Mr. Crosser. Yes. 

Mr. McMurray. Six hours. 

Mr. Crosser. Six hours? 

Mr. McMurray. Yes: I think that is a fair day’s work. However, 
it might be six or seven hours. I say that if a man works six or seven 
days a week and six or seven or even eight hours a day, he 
still has a great deal of time to devote to the discussion of any topics 
that might be discussed in a community forum. 

To revert to the question I was discussing a moment ago: The 
man who makes $3 a day may not know how to spend his money. 
He ought first to be taught how to spend what he has. The way to 
do this is through the influences of religion, in making men and 
women of the highest type out of our citizenry. That is a very im¬ 
portant question. 

Mr. Vinson. In connection with the statement you made just a 
moment ago. I want to ask this: Was it your idea that the man who 
works not over eight hours a day has time to discuss these questions 
throughout the week? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 93 


Mr. McMurray. Correct. That is exactly it. If a man will work 
only seven hours a day and sleep eight hours a day. which is a per¬ 
fectly proper limitation, that is 15 hours that lie spends out of the 
day, and he has nine hours left from the workday in which to discuss 
matters of the price of bread and butter, economy, and social ques¬ 
tions, and therefore he does not need to take up Sunday to discuss 
these questions. 

Mr. Vinson. Do you think that a man should devote his whole 
day—his whole Sunday—to any particular thing, provided he de¬ 
votes a portion of the day in following Biblical instructions? Do 
you think he should be curtailed and limited to one particular thing? 

Mr. McMurray. What do you mean ? 

Mr. V in son. Would not the balance of the day be of use to him— 
of benefit to him—if he learned discussions on the health regulations 
or learned the health regulations? 

Mr. McMurray. I think that is an excellent thing, if he has noth¬ 
ing else to do on Sunday. 

Mr. Vinson. Some people work five or six hours a day, and 
others work seven or eight or more hours a day, and, consequently, 
all men do not have the same number of hours out of each week day to 
devote to discussions such as you have suggested should be conducted 
on week days instead of conducting them on Sunday. But suppose 
a man works like I do—If hours a clay—where will he get his time 
during the week to discuss these questions? 

Mr. McMurra y . 1 do not think that a man as intelligent as you 
are, fitted to be a Member of the House of Representatives, needs 
to learn the health regulations or to listen to health lectures. 

Mr. Vinson. I think so. I know of no subject that would be more 
beneficial to people than to be well informed on questions of health 
and how to maintain health. 

Mr. McMurray. There is only one thing more important than 
that, and that is the care of the soul. 

Mr. F ocht. You say that you have lived here a number of years? 

Mr. McMurray. I have lived in the District of Columbia two 
years. 

Mr. Focht. Are you well acquainted with the local conditions 
here ? 

Mr. McMurray. It is my business to study them. 

Mr. Focht. But you believe these matters are local matters, and 
you are entirely satisfied with the bill in all respects except as to 
these Sunday meetings ? Is that correct ? 

Mr. McMurray. That is not what I am contending for. There 
are certain points here to be considered, and to be considered very 
carefully. I have been trying to mention those things, namely, the 
possibility of abuse of the school buildings through the simple re¬ 
quirement that 20 people shall have the right to ask for the use of a 
school building. There may be an abuse under that. There may be 
an abuse of the recreation places of the community. I think it is too 
much to ask that the taxpayers pay for these recreation places, and 
then turn them over on the request of so few people. I think the 
taxpayers ought to receive the benefit of these recreation places. 

Mr. Focht. What are your ideas as to the popular sentiment in 
Washington regarding the opening of the schoolhouses on Sunday 
for entertainment and political meetings? 


94 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. McMurray. So far as one can judge from a superficial ob¬ 
servation, and even from close study, from the study which I have 
given the matter, I think it is that we should not have anything any 
different from what it is at the present time. Washington is a 
place where we have no laws—no Sunday laws. We have no Sunday 
laws in the District of Columbia, yet our drug stores and hardware 
stores, and stores of that kind are closed on Sunday. Nearly all the 
people of the various occupations in the District rest on Sunday. 
You do not see much traffic in the States on Sunday mornings. You 
can go along the street and you will find that they are comparatively 
deserted. There are no trucks in the street, or comparatively few— 
certainly only those vehicles which are required in the delivery of 
perishable goods, such as ice wagons and that sort of thing. By 
common consent. Sunday is made a day of rest in the District of 
Columbia. They take the first day of the week and say they will 
rest from their occupations. The chauffeurs, perhaps, those who 
run the automobiles for the wealthy people—not for the demos, be¬ 
cause the common people do not have the privilege of owning an 
automobile—they will be found out with the automobiles of their 
employers. The common people do not have automobiles in which 
to run along the streets of the District of Columbia. The only 
people who work on Sunday, for the most part, are those who are 
required to work on street cars and vehicles. Everything in the 
District of Columbia practically stops on the first day of the week. 
That, too. in spite of the fact that we have no Sunday laws here. 

The labor unions require that a man shall work only five and one- 
half days a week. A man has Sunday and half of Saturday off as a 
holiday. If the people of the District of Columbia wanted to be 
practically consistent they would themselves work seven days in the 
week and not ask just those people to work on Sunday who are re¬ 
quired to take care of the school buildings which the people, or a 
small proportion of them, want to have opened on this day of the 
week, this day of rest. I think the fact that they themselves rest on 
the first day of the week is indicative of the fact that they want that 
thing put into general practice. And, gentlemen, unless they ex¬ 
press themselves in a strong manner in favor of opening the school 
buildings on Sunday, I do not think they ought to be opened. This 
was in the interests of the people who have to look after those school 
buildings, as well as in the interest of the public generally, and in 
the interest of a higher manhood and womanhood through looking 
after the interests and the welfare of the soul. I submit that there 
is no strong demand for opening the public schools on Sunday. I 
think the president of the board of education intimated that fact, 
and the board of education in general feel that there is not any great 
sentiment in favor of opening these buildings, these school buildings, 
of the District of Columbia. I think that if the people generally 
wanted them opened for these purposes they would be opened. 

The Chairman. Wouldn't you think that it Avould be better for the 
community, as far as morals are concerned, to have a good community 
forum than to have the theaters and shows and the public lectures 
that you find going on every Sunday in the theaters of this city ? 

Mr. McMurray. We are having both. If the theaters were closed 
on Sunday, then there might be some requirement for opening the 
public schools as a community forum. There is no law in the District 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 95 


of Columbia to close the theaters. If there were I might say, then, 
that there ought to be something, perhaps, done toward opening the 
public schools as a public or community forum, the same as was done 
in Rochester. The conditions that existed in Rochester, however, 
do not hold true in the District of Columbia. In the District of Co¬ 
lumbia there are moving-picture shows and theaters, and all that sort 
of thing, open for the people on Sunday. They do not need the pub¬ 
lic school buildings to use as a community center. 

The Chairman. Would it not be better to have this center than to 
attend the picture shows and theaters? A boy and girl are going to 
attend something on Sunday afternoon. The question is, What are 
they going to attend, the picture shows and theaters or a meeting at 
the public-school buildings? 

Mr. McMurray. I do not believe they need to go to either place. 
We did not have these places to go to when we were young. 

The Chairman. No; we could go fishing. 

Mr. McMurray. We went to Sunday school, and did not think it 
a very bad place to go to at that. Then there were interesting books 
to read. We also had opportunities for conferences, took walks, and 
things of that kind; and in that w T ay we spent Sunday very profit¬ 
ably and very pleasantly. We thought we had a thoroughly pleasant 
Sunday out of it. I think it was just as pleasant as going to a 
picture show or something of that kind. 

If the Sunday forum could be used for teaching the truths of 
religion on Sunday afternoon, then, there would be no objection to 
it; but we can not do it. We already have here in the District of 
Columbia a public forum in the Public Library. I have attended 
the meetings. Not long ago there was a meeting there in which the 
conduct was most disgraceful. Two men on the platform, because, 
they differed on a certain proposition, became angry and almost 
disgraced themselves. Last Sunday afternooon. at a meeting there, 
one or two people cried out, “ We understood this was a democratic 
forum, where everybody had a right to speak; but it seems that only 
one or two people are permitted to speak.” I will tell you of another 
case that occurred recently. Right close to me there was a person 
who arose and wanted to introduce some resolutions. He was told 
that this Grover Cleveland forum was unorganized, and, therefore* 
was not in a position to pass upon any public resolutions. It was 
stated, however, that as a public body they might pass upon them. 

If the idea is to have a democratic forum on Sunday, the proper 
thing to do, if the meetings are to be held in these public-school 
buildings, is to have the power lodged in the board of education to 
have people appointed to see that the meetings are conducted in an 
orderly manner; otherwise they will not work out satisfactorily. 
When we appeared before the board of education we asked that the 
Public Library, which is just as much a public building as are the 
public-school buildings of the District, should be handled m that 
manner. If you go out here and take the auditorium or some other 
hall in the city* you have a building which is not a public building; 
and, therefore, you could not have the board of education appoint 
a committee, or something of that sort, to oversee the meetings. The 
board of education would have no jurisdiction. On the other hand, 
in buildings like that, the subjects are not limited, as they neces¬ 
sarily will be in the public-school buildings. 




96 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Now, gentlemen, if the board of education opened the public- 
school buildings, they should have the power to close them if the 
people did not conduct themselves properly, or if those meetings 
were turned into such disgraceful proceedings as might well be 
imagined. If they are not going to be of any benefit to the com¬ 
munity, the board of education ought to have the power to close 
them. As soon as the people see that the board of education must 
allow the public to use these public-school buildings, then these 
buildings have got to be kept open evenings and on Sundays. They 
have got to be opened and kept opened. They must stay opened. 
That will be the result if you take away from the board of education 
the discretionary powers. 

Mr. Mapes. What would you say to a law that would say that 
the public-school buildings shall be open, and give the board of 
education control over the buildings and over the meetings, and to 
see that order, decencv, and cleanliness are maintained in the build- 
ing? 

Mr. McMurray. They have that now. They do not need this bill 
to enable them to do that. They already have that power. 

Mr. Mapes. That is in the discretion of the board ? 

Mr. McMurray. Yes; they have that now—they already have that 
power. 

Mr. Mapes. Suppose you had a law that stated that the buildings 
should be open? 

Mr. McMurray. That they should be open the same as for public 
instruction during the week? Is that what you mean? 

Mr. Mapes. In effect this bill should give the board of education 
some control over the conduct of the meetings in the buildings. 

Mr. McMurray. That is all right. That is what it should be. 
That is not what this bill asks for. They have that power now. 

Mr. Mapes. They have the discretion to open them on Sundays or 
on any other day? 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. 

Mr. Mapes. But suppose the law said that the buildings should 
be open—made it mandatory—but allow the board of education to 
control the buildings and to control the order of the meetings—not 
to control the discussions, but to have control over the buildings? 

Mr. McMurray. There should not be any objection to that, pro¬ 
viding nothing took place that was objectionable. That should be 
in the discretion of the board. The board should have the power 
to see that the public did not mar or injure the property that the 
taxpayers had paid for in order to give the children of the District 
of Columbia an education. 

Mr. Mapes. Would you favor such a law if it did not exclude 
Sunday ? 

Mr. McMurray. I think it would be a fair proposition at the 
same time, with the present popular feeling in the matter and with 
the present popular clamor, to exclude Sunday from the operation 
of the bill. I think it would be better to begin by using the public- 
school buildings for six days in the week; then, if the idea grew 
and there became a strong, an overwhelming, demand to have the 
buildings opened on Sunday, then, that matter could be taken up. 
In the meantime, however. I think that they ought to be kept closed 
on Sunday. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Q7 

The Chairman. What objection would you have to making it 
mandatory six days in the week and permissible on Sunday? 

Mr. McMurray. We have no objection to the matter as it stands 
at the present time. 

The Chairman. As I understand it the board would consider it 
mandatory as far as weekdays are concerned, and discretionary on 
Sunday. Do you consider it practically mandatory as far as week 
days are concerned? 

Dr. McMurray. I do not want to speak about the Sunday fea¬ 
ture, because there are others who are going to speak about that. 
That is the only issue at stake. The question is whether the Grover 
Cleveland public forum should be opened Sunday afternoon or not. 
That is the point at issue there. There are other points at issue in 
this bill. One of the reasons is voiced very well by a professor at 
Harvard University. In speaking of the community center, he says 
that whether or not it is right for a community of taxpayers to pay 
for the recreation of the adults in the community, if the public schools 
are used for recreation purposes, the expense should be borne by 
some organization. The schools could be used under rules and regu¬ 
lations adopted by some responsible body, such as the board of edu¬ 
cation. Unless you have some body which is thoroughly authorized 
to furnish topics for discussion, there is likely to occur some abuse 
of the privilege. I contend that if it is not permitted to discuss 
religion in the school buildings, it is equally objectionable to discuss 
subjects that engender in the minds of people irreligion. 

And right there, gentlemen, is one of the dangers of opening the 
doors of the public schools for the purposes of a public forum. Any¬ 
body has the right, as one of the public, to go in there and speak as 
he pleases; and by reason of the fact that a great many people would 
use the public-school buildings for that purpose, they would be in¬ 
clined to make statements and advance theories inconsistent with 
a republican form of government. The people who come over here, 
although intelligent, are not versed in the principles of democracy. 
They were borne under a different form of government and do not 
understand democratic principles. They do not understand the 
government of the United States, the principles upon which it is 
founded. 

Now, gentlemen, the voters of this great Nation have delegated 
to you gentlemen, to Eepresentatives and Senators in Congress, the 
duty of making laws, and they have also delegated to certain other 
persons, making up the executive branch of the Government, the 
duty and power to enforce the laws so made. Having delegated this 
authority, they themselves have given up that authority. They have 
not the right to make the laws; they have delegated that right and 
authority to you. They have not the right to enforce the laws that 
you make, having delegated that duty and power to the executive 
branch of the Government. Analogous to that is the delegation of 
authority by the people to the Board of Education of the District 
of Columbia in the matter of supervising and governing the schools 
and the school buildings of the District. Having delegated that 
authority, they are not in the position to come in themselves and 
exercise that authority. The board of education possesses that power. 

By insisting upon the rights of the individual, you will run into a 

38523—16-7 


98 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

situation where society has fewer rights. When an individual, as a 
member of society, delegates authority, the authority which is resi¬ 
dent in him, to some set of men or body of men, then he has not the 
right to exercise the same authority. The people have delegated to 
the board of education the right to govern these schools. People say 
that these are public, these school buildings, and therefore are for 
the use of the public. 

Now, the public have set these school buildings aside for a certain 
purpose, and delegated to the board of education the right of gov¬ 
erning them. Although these buildings are public property, no 
individual has a right to come in and deface this property, or 
any part of it, as he would his own property if he saw fit. It does 
not belong to the individual. It belongs to the public as a whole. 
No one man has any more interest or right in it than any other 
man. Under the extreme theory that these public-school buildings 
are public property, afid that any member of the public has a right 
to use them as he sees fit, an individual may go up to one of these 
school buildings and say that he wants to go in, that he has a right 
to go in, that the property is public property, that he is one of the 
public and therefore has a right to go into the building. He says, 
u I have a perfect right to go into the building, just as I would go 
into my own house. It belongs to me, and I can go and stay in here, 
because it does belong to me.” That is the thing that we object to. 
These buildings, it is true, do belong to the people; but the people 
have forfeited their rights and lodged the authority over them 
in the board of education. Inasmuch as the people are willing, and, 
by common consent, have forfeited their rights as citizens and dele¬ 
gated them and the responsibility of looking after these school 
buildings to the board of education, the board of education acts 
for them, and there ought to be, in accordance with the logic of the 
situation, such a governing of the public-school buildings as will 
be in accord with the wishes of the board of education. When 
that board ceases to represent the people as they want to be repre¬ 
sented, the people are in a position to change the board. At the 
present time the people, as I understand it, have reposed in the 
board of education, by common consent, the control of education; 
therefore, the board of education has control of the buildings in 
which the education of the children of the community is conducted. 
This authority having been delegated to the board by the public, 
the matter is one for the board of education to handle—not for the 
public. 

Mr. Focht. It is a matter of common consent, entirely, is it not? 

Mr. McMdrray. It is a matter of common consent, yes. We have 
consented here in the District of Columbia that the education of 
our children, the administration of our schools, shall be reposed 
in the board of education, who shall have the right to hire the 
teachers who are fitted to give instruction to our children. The 
board of education has the right to say who shall teach the children. 
The responsibility is upon the board to engage competent teachers. 
The whole point of our contention, therefore, is simply this, that 
as we have delegated to the board of education the rights and privi¬ 
leges in connection with these school buildings and all matter con¬ 
nected with the education of our children, the public, individual 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 99 


members of society, have no right to go in and usurp the places of 
the teachers, who have been appointed by the board of education, 
to whom we have delegated the authority to hire teachers. The 
people in the vicinity of the Grover Cleveland School should not, 
therefore, have the right to go into that public-school building on 
Sunday and take over the province of the teachers whom the board 
of education has engaged for the purpose of giving instruction in 
that school. If the right is granted to the people in that vicinity 
to so use the Grover Cleveland School, the same right must be 
granted as to other schools. There can be no discrimination as to 
the Grover Cleveland School. It can not be opened alone, and all 
the others closed. If the right is to be given to the community as 
to any single schoolhouse, the right must extend throughout the 
District and be enjoyed by all the people equally. That is a fore¬ 
gone conclusion. It is not right to discriminate in favor of the 
Grover Cleveland School. 

The public having delegated to the board of education the right 
to govern the education of the children of the District, and therefore 
delegated to the board of education the right to supervise the school 
buildings of the District of Columbia, the people of the District have 
no right to say that the board of education shall not restrict the hours 
when the school buildings shall be open. If it were otherwise any 
individual—or. as provided in this bill, any group of individuals 
numbering 20—would have the right to require the board of educa¬ 
tion to have these school buildings opened at all hours. The board 
might be required to have the school opened at 3 o'clock in the after¬ 
noon. or it might be required to have it open at 10 o’clock in the 
morning, or it might be required to have it open at 8 or 9 o’clock in 
the evening. There would be no limit. 

This being so. there would be nothing at all to hinder the preach¬ 
ing in those school buildings of doctrines inimical to the Govern¬ 
ment. to the principles government, to the principles of democracy 
which prevail in the United States. If these buildings are thrown 
open, without any rules and regulations, without any authority in 
any body of men such as the board of education to say when and 
under what conditions meetings may be held in these public school 
buildings, then there is no restraint: and there is no reason, under 
such a condition, why any doctrines whatsoever may not be preached 
in our public school buildings, whether they be inimical to our form 
of government or not. They can discuss any subjects whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Don’t you think the community forum has that 
right ? 

Mr. McMurray. They have that right: yes. That is one reason 
why, where community forums have been held on Sunday afternoon, 
they have been found detrimental, and have been closed in some 
places. 

This is a matter, gentlemen, that has to be fostered. It is not a 
popular idea in any sense. You may be led to believe that it is 
through listening to the people on the other side of the question. It 
is not a popular idea here in the District of Columbia. People have 
to be trained to such a thing as this. 

The Chairman. Most any kind of new movement has to be fos¬ 
tered. 


100 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mi*. McMurray. That is true. There is no popular demand for 
this. 

The Chairman. Take the temperance proposition. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. 

The Chairman. Or woman’s suffrage. 

Mr. McMurray. That is right. I would not make this point, gen¬ 
tlemen. if it had not been seemingly made apparent that the people 
are all simply rushing forward to demand that the board of educa¬ 
tion be required to open the public school buildings of the District 
of Columbia for the purposes of a public or community forum. At 
the present time the movement has not reached that point, by any 
means. It is backed only by very few. No great number of people 
are interested in it in the District of Columbia. It is simply one of 
the whims on the part of certain people, of a certain class. 

I am sorry to take up so much of your time, gentlemen, but I want 
to make this one further point: The claim is made that every citizen 
of this country has a perfect right to ask that the public-school build¬ 
ings be opened for these purposes, simply because he is a citizen of 
the country and has certain rights of ownership in the buildings. 
Just because he has a certain right, as a member of the public, as an 
individual of society, a certain ownership in the buildings he thinks 
that he has the right to come in and require that these buildings 
shall be open for these purposes, especially if he is able to make a 
certain number of'Other people believe likewise. 

In a certain sense, our country is largely made up of foreigners, 
or people who have come in from European countries and who have 
not been trained in our form of government. Coming over here from 
governments that are more or less autocratic in form they do not 
understand the principles which underlie our form of government— 
a democracy. They are not in a position to discuss in public-school 
buildings, before our youths and such of our adult population as has 
not been trained in our form of government, the doctrines which lie 
has gained largely in his own country. A discussion of those doc¬ 
trines might be detrimental to our form of government. 

Now, as to the people who have been born in this country, they 
have had an opportunity to study our form of government and under¬ 
stand its principles, more or less. They are taught the history of the 
United States and the form of government of the United States in 
our public day schools and in our night schools. But for anyone to 
come in here and to discuss some economical theory without a full 
knowledge of democratic principles they do harm to others. It may 
be inimical to our form of government. In other words, we have to 
learn the fundamentals of our Government. We who have been 
born here have been in a position to learn them. But the foreigners 
who come in here do not understand our form of government and 
they are very likely to inject into their discussions on a Sunday 
afternoon things that are and will be against our Government. I am 
acquainted with the work in a great many places where there are 
community forums, and I know something about the results. They 
are held, for instance, in Ford Hall, in Boston, and that is controlled 
by the Baptist Central Union. In that forum, because it is con¬ 
trolled by a private organization, perhaps 40 per cent of the discus¬ 
sions hinge around religious and ethical subjects and 60 per cent are 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 101 

economical, social, and political subjects. That can be done there, 
because that is a privately owned institution. You can not do that 
in the public schools, because any topic which you might discuss may 
bring in the question of religion or a question of ethics which is 
intimately bound up with religion. Those things can not be dis¬ 
cussed in our public schools. That has been settled. 

However, these people may say that the public school, being public 
property, is the property of the individual, and that, therefore, the 
individual has a perfect right to go into them and discuss any ques¬ 
tion he pleases, just the same as he would go into his own home and 
discuss any topic he pleased. He says'that it is common property, 
that it belongs to the people, and that he has as much right, as one 
of the people, to discuss the subject in there as he has in his own 
home. Carrying the principle out to its logical conclusion, he would, 
under the science of democracy, in the last analysis, have such a 
right. But, gentlemen, when you admit that, you open the gates to 
what is little short of anarchy. When you do that, you do something 
that is akin to anarchy. You can not hinder me from going into the 
public schools, into the public-school buildings, under such a regime 
as that; and you can not hinder me from saying anything I care to 
say and anything that I would say in my own home. I can say that 
in my own home I have a perfect right to say anything I please; and, 
reasoning along the line 1 have suggested, if the public-school build¬ 
ing is as much mine as my own home is, then I have a perfect right 
to say in that school building anything that I would say in my own 
home, whether it suits the man who is sitting next to me or not, be¬ 
cause I say I have a right to, because this is my home, too. 

The Chairman. Suppose you both asserted yourselves. You as¬ 
serted yourself about your idea and your neighbor asserted himself 
about his idea, and then another neighbor asserted himself, and none 
of you three agreed. What harm has been done? You could get 
from the ideas interchanged, from the differences that existed be¬ 
tween the several ideas expressed, some thought that might be bene¬ 
ficial to you. 

Dr. McMurray. Yes, sir; but when I have asserted myself too 
strongly and the other man has asserted himself too strongly, it may 
come to the point of a fist fight. I have a right to. 

The Chairman. You have not a right to a fist fight. You have no 
right to go beyond decency and order. 

Dr. McMurray. Why not, if it is my home—if the public-school 
building is my home ? 

The Chairman. You have not a right to do that even in your own 
home, and you have not a right to do it in the schoolhouse. 

Dr. McMurray. Well. T know they will deny that, because they 
can not see the point to which that leads; but nevertheless it is a fact. 

Mr. Focht. The question was raised the other day by one of my 
colleagues that no disturbances have ever occurred in these forums. 
Upon that point my colleague was mistaken, for I have here an edi¬ 
torial from the Boston Transcript, which is one of the most conserva¬ 
tive papers in rock-ribbed New England, commenting upon the riot 
that occurred in one of these meetings, and to quell which the militia 
had to be called out. That may be an extraordinary situation, but 
it happened. And as this point is of interest, I want to put this arti¬ 
cle—this editorial—in the record at this point. 


102 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


(The editorial referred to is as follows:) 

(Boston Transcript, Tuesday, Apr. 4, 1916.] 

A DISGRACE TO MASSACHUSETTS. 

We are not much accustomed to lynch law in Massachusetts. The outbreak at 
Haverhill is therefore as surprising as it is disgraceful. Thomas F. Leyden, the 
man whom 10,000 rioters apparently sought to lynch, had license to speak in the 
Haverhill City Hall. He had therefore as much right to express Ins sentiments 
there as Gov. McCall has to address the legislature, or Bishop Lawrence or 
Cardinal O’Connell to speak to congregations in their respective cathedrals. 
Standing on his platform there, Leyden is entitled to the protection of the whole 
power of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and, if that does not suffice, ot 
the United States of America. What he is going to say cuts no figure. He 
speaks on his responsibility, and may and should be held to a rigid accountability 
for any libelous, scurrilous, or seditious words that he may utter. But liis right 
to speak and utter his opinions is absolutely sacred. In this State, which was 
founded upon the principle of freedom of opinion and worship, no more insolent 
outrage can be offered to the law than to question that right. 

Evidently the rioters at Haverhill were bent upon wreaking personal injury, 
possibly murder, upon the man who intended to speak at the city hall. They did 
attack innocent men, and they attacked the houses and smashed the windows of 
ministers who were in sympathy with Mr. Leyden. If this sort of violence is 
not repressed and properly punished the lawless insolence that it represents will 
grow, and we shall have an end of the rights and liberties to establish which our 
fathers came into the wilderness. 

The Chairman. You have been in this country long enough to hear 
of some of the fisticuffs we have had in the House of Representatives. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes; but it is true that you could not have fisti¬ 
cuffs unless you thought you had a right to indulge in them. 

The Chairman. The unfortunate thing in these matters is the ex¬ 
hibition of temper. That will occur in any kind of a gathering, 
whether it is a school forum or some other kind of body where the 
people assemble. That sometimes even happens in the home. 

Mr. McMurray. That is right, sir; and you will bring me back to 
the thing I have been contending for, that you ought to have some¬ 
body—some organization—to teach you how to control your temper. 

The Chairman. If you put that up to me, I would say that I think 
that is one of the things that you have learned from infancy. You 
learn it in the home; you learn it at Sunday school: you learn it from 
the pastor of your church; and you learn it from your civic organi¬ 
zations; and you learn it from the institutions of the Government in 
becoming a good citizen. Every good citizen of this land must neces¬ 
sarily learn it. 

Mr. McMurray. If what I have been saying has brought out that 
statement, I am very glad of it, because I want to make the point, and 
I have been making it, I think, that we must have our Sundays for 
training our boys and girls in just exactly the things you mention. 
Our boys and girls need this instruction, and they need their Sundays 
in order to get it properly. How can they get it if they go to these 
public-school forums and listen to discussions on economic questions? 
I think there will be a great deal of opportunity there for an exhi¬ 
bition of temper. 

The Chairman. Your impression is this: That there would be 
more ground for an exhibition of temper there than in the places to 
v liich you refer ? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 103 


Mr. McMurray. \es; because every man likes to consider that he 
has a right to do anything he saw fit to do there. When he is in his 
own place he has perfect authority. As the schoolhouse, under this 
system, would be his own, just as much as his own home would be, 
he would consider that he had a right to give an exhibition of temper. 
There is nothing to hinder a man from going in there and taking off 
his coat and vest and making himself perfectly at home. If we 
were going to say that the public school house belongs to every citi¬ 
zen, you are making a statement that it belongs to him, and that it 
is his just as anybody else's, and that he has just as much right to do 
what his inclination dictates there as he would have in his own home. 
That is the situation. 

The Chairman. Don’t you recognize that there is a certain re¬ 
straint on a man in a case of that kind ? 

Mr. McMurray. Who puts that restraint on him? 

The Chairman. The law and his obligations as a citizen of the 
Republic. 

Mr. McMurray. Who makes the law and who backs up the law? 

The Chairman. The lawmaking body of the Government makes 
the laws, and the administrative officers of the Government enforce 
them. The administrative officers “ back up the law,” as you say. 

Mr. McMurray. Where does the administrative branch of the 
Government get its authority? From the people and the good will 
of the people. We back up our law officers, the ones who execute the 
laws, and we also back up the makers of our laws; and if there was 
not anything to give us moral backbone we would not know any¬ 
thing about these things. Our Government as a democracy would 
cease to have a meaning. 

The Chairman. The exchange of ideas is one of the best means of 
maintaining a democracy. 

Mr. McMurray. But these ideas must be of a high quality. 

The Chairman. Don't you think we have sufficiently advanced in 
civilization to have high ideas? 

Mr. McMurray. T believe that the highest type of democracy 
resides right here in America. This is the very highest tvpe of 
democracy—the highest of all countries. We have that right here in 
America—right here in the United States of America. The next 
highest type of .democracy resides in Great Britain. T think after 
that everyone will concede that possibly the next is France or Ger¬ 
many. What do we find? We find that ever since this country 
was founded we have laid great stress on moral quality, which we 
get from our Puritanical ideals. 

You talk about your town meetings—they had town meetings in 
the early days of this country, in New England, among the Puritans. 
They held the town meetings on week days, and on Sundays they 
spent the day in improving their souls. The people went to church 
on Sunday. There they listened to the inculcation of high moral 
lessons. That is the reason why rock-ribbed New England, and the 
States near New England, have made it a point to observe the Sab¬ 
bath Day. They have done that until very recently. It is only 
within the last 25 years that we have been lax on Sundays. One of 
the reasons why we have become lax in this matter, I think, is be¬ 
cause we have had anywhere from 15,000,000 to 20,000,000 of new 


104 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

people coining in here. That is the cause of it. It is not an issue 
on the part of people who have been brought up in America, under 
American institutions. You will find this laxness in Sunday observ¬ 
ance greater in the larger cities than it is in the more moderately 
sized cities, greater in the moderate-sized cities than in the smaller 
cities, greater in the smaller cities than in the towns, and greater in 
the towns than it is in the country. In New York City, Chicago, 
and other cities like that, the laxness is much greater than it is in 
moderate-sized Washington. 

The Chairman. This is the one place, too, where we have no Sun¬ 
day regulation. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. 

The Chairman. Notwithstanding that fact, it is one of the best- 
regulated cities on Sunday that you will find in the United States—of 
its size. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. 

Mr. Crosser. Is it not a fact that there is less of this element you 
mention here in Washington than in other places of its size? 

Mr. McMurray. It would be a downright shame if, with 40,000 
Government employees, as I understand there are here, who are men 
and women of more than average intelligence, who are required to 
pass a civil-service examination before entering the Government em¬ 
ploy, this were not true. I say, it would be a shame if it were not 
true. With people of that character in the city, I do not see why 
it should not be a well-behaved city. With all this intelligence, with 
this high degree of intelligence among so large a body as this popula¬ 
tion, I do not see how it could help being so. 

Mr. Grosser. Then why all this objection to opening the school- 
houses, if they are so intelligent ? 

Mr. McMurray. The intelligent community does not ask for it. 
That is the point we are talking about. That is the thing I am con¬ 
tending for. If you will get 51 per cent of the people of the District 
of Columbia to ask for this privilege, to ask for the opening, of the 
public schools as a community forum, a community center, on Sun¬ 
day, then I am with you. In that case, I think you ought to have it. 

The Chairman. You say the intelligent people of the District of 
Columbia are not asking for it. Then, I gather, you claim the 
ignorant people of the District of Columbia are asking for it. This 
being so, if it is so, don’t you think it would be a good idea to have 
it, for the enlightenment of the ignorant people? 

Mr. McMurray. No; I do not think it would be a good thing. 
I would not charge any man with ignorance. It is no crime to be 
ignorant. It is only a lack of education. Because a man is ignorant, 
it does not necessarily follow that he is defective. Many men and 
women in this country are ignorant as to the institutions of this 
country. They have not read President Wilson’s history of the 
United States or any other history. 

The Chairman. You say a great many of the people of this coun¬ 
try are ignorant of the institutions of this country. How can any 
man be a good citizen unless he knows the principles of this Gov¬ 
ernment? Would it not be a good idea to have a forum in which 
the principles of government are discussed, in order that these people 
who are ignorant of our institutions and the principles of our Gov¬ 
ernment may be informed upon them ? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 105 

Mr. McMurray. If it is intended to teach lessons in United States 
history, then I think they ought to have a competent teacher, instead 
of letting anybody who likes to talk come in and undertake to give 
instruction in the subject. 

Mr. Grosser. Who is to decide his competency? Do you want to 
have a high mogul sitting up there to determine who shall be the 
instructor ? 

Mr. McMurray. Who determines who shall instruct our children 
throughout the week? The board of education. 

Mr. Crosser. Do you mean to put the adult people of the District 
of Columbia on the same basis as the children, and have guardians 
appointed for them? 

Mr. McMurray. If you have not been instructed in the funda¬ 
mental principles of the American Government, you need an instruc¬ 
tor just as much as your child does. 

Mr. Crosser. You may be likewise in the same situation. There¬ 
fore why should you decide who shall be the instructor any more 
than I myself? Which one would decide this question? 

Mr. McMurray. It is not a matter of my opinion Avhether you are 
ignorant or not. You yourself know whether you are ignorant or 
not. If you came to this country within the last year, from some 
foreign country, like Russia, for instance, where they do not have 
democracy, and where they do not know anything about it. but where 
they have a sort of autocracy, then, I say, you are not the proper 
person to give instruction in the fundamental principles of the Gov¬ 
ernment of the United States. People do not comprehend this point. 
It is an important point. We would not have a party leader who 
could control blocks of people if we had a thoroughly intelligent, 
thinking, educated citizenry. That is what is required in a de¬ 
mocracy. 

Mr. Crosser. The forum would do a good deal to remedy that. 

Mr. McMurray. The forum does not remedy that at all. 

Mr. Grosser. There woidd be a discussion of principles that would 
be enlightening to those who were not well informed. Wouldn’t 
that be a remedy to some extent? 

Mr. McMurray. Why in the world should we permit a man to get 
up there and undertake to discuss these questions when he does not 
know enough about American Government, about American history, 
about American politics, and about the fundamental principles of 
American Government, about the fundamental idea upon which the 
American Government is founded ? Why should we have our people 
going on Sunday afternoon to listen to a discussion of that sort, 
which is more likely to misinform than to inform ? 

Mr. Grosser. Do you mean to say that all the people at such a 
gathering, at such a meeting in this forum on a Sunday afternoon, 
would be ignorant of those fundamental principles? It seems to me 
that that is just the place where a proper notion of these principles 
would be given. The best way to disseminate the ideals of democracy 
is public debate, public discussion. 

Mr. McMurray. If, as I say, there is something more to be had 
than a discussion of mere economics, social questions, and so on, and 
if we can not discuss ethics and religion in the schoolhouses, what are 
we going to discuss that will be of benefit to those who are not yet 


106 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


well informed? What good would it do, who would want to spend 
their time in going on a Sunday afternoon and listening to a dis¬ 
cussion of the pork barrel? These people would not know what a 
pork barrel is. Before you began the discussion of it, you woidd 
have to tell them what it is. 

Mr. Grosser. I have not in mind a state of affairs where one man 
would get up and make a discussion of that kind. There would be 
others there who would differ with him. They would get at the 
truth by an exchange of views—at least, they would approximate it. 
Why should there be any authority, any body, any organization, any 
man to delegate any particular individual to get up there and be 
the one speaker? If you say that a single man should be delegated 
as speaker, how would you determine his qualifications? Would 
you appoint him because he was a Democrat ? Would you appoint 
him because he was a Republican? Would you designate him be¬ 
cause he was a Socialist? Then, if so, Avho would designate him? 
Under your theory, you have to have somebody to determine this 
question. I do not say that; I do not believe it. I am talking about 
your theory. 

Mr. McMurray. You have to have somebody. 

Mr. Grosser. The thing to do is to get together in this forum, and 
you and I put forth our ideas and debate them one against the other. 
The only worth-while citizen is the man who takes the trouble to go 
out and argue with such fellows as you. 

Mr. McMurray. I hope the gentleman will begin with the very 
fundamentals. 

I think I was interrupted on the statement of the reason why we 
object to this proposition. One reason, of course, is that you have to 
make an appropriation for it. The people who enjoy the public- 
school buildings as the community forum do not meet the expense. 
There will be expense connected with this work, in keeping the 
buildings open in the evenings and on Sundays; and the janitor and 
the people who look after the buildings will have to be paid for their 
time. 

Mr. Grosser. The taxpayers do not get any good out of the public 
schools. 

Mr. McMurray. That is a mistaken idea. I think everybody gets 
benefit out of the public schools. I think that bachelors and spinsters 
get a good deal of good out of them. There is not a man or woman 
in the country who does not get benefit out of the public schools, di¬ 
rectly or indirectly—and I think, generally speaking, directly, be¬ 
cause, through them, they become better citizens. One of the results 
of the public-school system is a better citizenship. 

Mr. Crosser. Does it not make better citizenship to engage in dis¬ 
cussion to try to inform the people? 

Mr. McMurray. If they are secure upon fundamentals. 

Mr. Crosser. Who is to determine that? 

Mr. McMurray. That becomes very apparent. 

Mr. Crosser. Who? 

Mr. McMurray. You know very well you have to have a standard. 

Mr. Grosser. If you have to have standard, who is going to de¬ 
termine that standard ? Why should you know better than I do what 
that standard should be? How can you do better than to let the 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IX THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 107 


people themselves determine that ? It is one of the fundamentals, one 
of the essentials of democracy that a majority of the people can get 
together and decide upon what they want. 

Mr. McMurray. After they have gotten together and discussed it. 
Before then you can not determine whether it is the right thing to do 
or not. After all, there is something to be said for the Almighty 
God who rules. The rules He has laid down are the best laws, the 
most helpful to mankind, the most useful in moral and spiritual 
uplift. I do not know of anything man made, any human institu¬ 
tions, any laws, that can approximate the ones He has given us. 
That is why we have with us to-day the clergymen. 

Mr. Mapes. It is a dangerous thing to get away from those 
standards. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. 

Mr. Crosser. In actual experience, would you give somebody the 
right to say what the standard is? Perhaps you will remember that 
in the University of Chicago they had some trouble over that very 
principle. 

Mr. McMurray. Over what? 

Mr. Crosser. Because they touched upon something that was not 
according to Hoyle—according to the views of the trustees. 

Mr. McMurray. What has that to do with the community forum ? 

Mr. Crosser. That has a lot to do with what you have been saying, 
that somebody must decide what must be taught. 

Mr. McMurray. Yes. 

Mr. Grosser. It is a dangerous system to have somebody deter¬ 
mine whether I should believe in Methodism, Presbyterianism, or 
Unitarianism in the realm of religion; or a protective tariff or free 
trade in economics; or in Republicanism, Democracy, or Socialism 
in the realm of politics. I think it is a very dangerous proposition 
to let any man determine what must be the only thing to be taught. 

Mr. McMurray. The fact of the matter is that you are not going 
to get any closer to it by teaching a form of theoretical democracy. 

Mr. Grosser. Will you get any further by teaching a form of 
theoretical monarchy ? 

Mr. McMurray. We have here a system of representative democ¬ 
racy. Do you think there is anything wrong with that ? 

Mr. Grosser. I think there are a great many things wrong with it. 
I would like the people to have the veto power on all actions of the 
Representatives, so as to bring legislation closer to the people. 

Mr. McMurray. Who is to determine whether the present adminis¬ 
tration is a success? 

Mr. Grosser. The people. 

Mr. McMurraf. A majority of the people will determine that at 
the next election. 

Mr. Grosser. Yes. 

Mr. McMurray. And then certain standards will be approxi¬ 
mated. 

Mr. Grosser. What do you mean by that ? 

Mr. McMurray. Because these people have been taught certain 
fundamental economic ideas in regard to the tariff and things like 
that, and they come up to certain standards. 

Mr. Grosser. Who determines those standards? 


108 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. McMurray. If a majority of the people vote for free trade 
or a protective tariff because after certain arguments have been 
presented to them they agree, they determine that question. 

Mr. Grosser. The discussion is among the people themselves as to 
which is right or wrong. 

Mr. McMurray. Oh, no. 

Mr. Grosser. You do not know of anything, do you, to prevent 
you and me from advising the multitude ? 

Mr. McMurray. The most political meetings that I have gone to 
have been addressed by four of five men, and there has been very 
little opportunity for discussion. 

Mr. Mapes. I think this committee has turned into a forum right 
here. 

Mr. Focht. May I ask you whether this collection here is to be a 
sample of what the forum is to give us? [Laughter.] 

Mr. McMurray. I have been talking an hour now. There has 
been no conclusion reached. 

The Chairman. The members of the committee have been asking 
a good many questions, and you have not had much of an oppor¬ 
tunity to present your views. We are very glad to hear you, and 
shall be glad to hear you further. 

Mr. McMurray. Thank you. 

Mr. Mapes. When you say that no conclusion has been reached I 
gather that you would like the committee to express an opinion, any 
opinion they may have reached toward your argument. Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. McMurray. No; not at all. That would not be democracy. 
That would not be proper. You ought to listen to all sides before 
you come to any conclusions. 

Mr. Mapes. Yes. 

Mr. McMurray. I believe that is all I have to say. 

The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you. 

I promised Mr. Davenport, a Member of the House of Iiepre- 
sentatives, to hear him a few minutes just before the conclusion of 
this session. He has something to say in favor of this bill. That 
shall not be taken off the time of those who are opposed to it, and I 
hope you will consider it no interference. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES S. DAVENPORT, A REPRESENTATIVE 
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. 

Mr. Davenport. I have heard the objection of gentlemen and 
ladies who have been testifying, and have been very much interested 
in the different views presented with reference to the use of public 
school buildings in the city of Washington for purposes of a com¬ 
munity forum. I have heard those in favor of it and some of those 
who have opposed it. I take this privilege of saying that, as I view 
the matter, the communities ought to have the right granted to them, 
and the privilege of using public buildings, the public schoolhouses, 
for the purpose of a community forum or community center. 

I have had some experience in this matter out in my State, in 
Oklahoma. I think the community forum is a great factor in the 
upbuilding of a community. This is particularly true when the 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 109 


people do not have access to public halls, in which meetings of a 
communal interest may be held. I think, from what I know of the 
conditions here in Washington, that it would be a good thing for the 
people of the District to have such use of the public-school buildings 
of the District of Columbia. 

I have been living in a new State, the forty-sixth State that came 
into our Union, and we have a statute upon this subject, which I am 
going to ask to have incorporated in this record. In a general way 
the statute provides that a district board, to be created for the pur¬ 
pose, shall have the care and keeping of the schoolhouse and prop¬ 
erty belonging to the district, and are authorized to open the school- 
house for the use of religious, political, literary, scientific, mechani¬ 
cal, or agricultural societies of the district. It also provides that the 
meetings shall be held under such regulations as the board may adopt. 

The Chairman. Is that the language of the act? 

Mr. Davenport. No. The language of the act is this: 

Sec. 6461. Use of school house. — The district board shall have the care and 
keeping of the schoolhouse and other property belonging to the District, as 
hereinbefore provided. They are hereby authorized to open the schoolhouse for 
the use of religious, political, literary, scientific, mechanical, or agricultural so¬ 
cieties belonging in their district, for holding the business or public meetings 
of such societies, under such relations as the school board may adopt. 

That is published in the general statutes of Oklahoma for 1908. 

The Chairman. Is that one of the few statutes that did not get 
into the constitution of Oklahoma ? 

Mr. Davenport. That is one of the good statutes that have been 
placed upon the statute books of Oklahoma and ought to be placed 
upon the statute books in every State in the Union. 

Mr. Mapes. From your statement, and from the law as you read 
it. I gather that the control is still left in the hands of the school 
board. 

Mr. Davenport. The ministerial part of the law is up to the board. 
The board has charge of the properties and is responsible for its 
proper management; but the board, wdien societies apply to it for 
the use of the building for holding meetings turns the property over 
to an individual, the individual who is at the head of that society, 
and he becomes responsible for the management of the school build¬ 
ings. 

Mr. Mapes. And if he does not properly manage it, what happens? 

Mr. Davenport. We have been in the Union since November 16, 
1907, and although the schoolhouses have been used during all that 
time, the board had never had occasion to revoke the privilege of 
using a schoolhouse. 

If the bill before the committee is enacted into law, I think the 
school board or any other ministerial power will have no occasion 
to revoke its order, because the citizenship of the District of Co¬ 
lumbia will be such a high standard of citizenship that you will have 
no regret, and no occasion to revoke the privilege of using the school- 
houses for this purpose. 

Next to the churches of our country comes the schoolroom, and 
next to that comes the communities and the citizenship that sur¬ 
rounds that schoolroom. If you expect the people to form a good, 
substantial society, either in city or country, you have got to give 
the people opportunity to become good citizens. If you pass this 


110 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


bill and get this movement started in the District of Columbia you 
will find that these small community centers will grow, and they, 
in turn, will merge or join with larger community centers, and thus 
there will be built up a common interest in this matter throughout 
the district. If you expect to raise the citizenship of the country to 
a proper standard, if you expect to raise the standard of citizenship 
in this city to the highest level, you must take some such step as 
this. In every city I have ever had the pleasure of living in or 
visiting there are hundreds of people who do not take advantage of 
the opportunity offered them to attend the churches. If I may be 
pardoned for saying so—I do it in all deference to the people of 
Washington—there are many people who are staying away from 
churches in this city simply because when they do go to church 
they must wait until other people are seated before they can get in 
and get a pew to sit down in. 

If you will give the people of the District of Columbia an oppor¬ 
tunity to meet in the schoolhouses, in the way anticipated, and thus 
give them an opportunity to organize literary and social societies, 
and so on, or any kind of an organization that may be called a com¬ 
munity forum—you may call it by whatever name you please—then 
you are going to do a great deal toward raising the standard of 
citizenship in the District. If you but give them the opportunity 
you will soon find that there will be a local organization built up here 
that will take an immense interest in questions of literature, ques¬ 
tions of a scientific nature, and all that sort of thing, and you will 
find that, in turn, these small units will be joined with other units, 
and you will continue to build up a society that every person in the 
United States will be proud of. 

Mr. Mapes. Your bill, in force in Oklahoma, the statute of Okla¬ 
homa, has not worked any harm to the community out there, has it? 

Mr. Davenport. No; it has not worked any harm. On the con¬ 
trary, it has done wonderful good, because it has given the com¬ 
munities an opportunity to organize and create societies; because 
it gives them the public schoolhouses to hold their meetings in, 
where there otherwise would not be any halls available. 

Mr. Grosser. That is the cause of the political progress of your 
State. 

Mr. Davenport. Well, I won’t boast of my State. 

Mr. Mapes. It affords the people an opportunity to exercise the 
duties of citizenship. 

Mr. Davenport. I have found that to be a working fact in my 
State. There is no State in the Union that is as great in school- 
houses as Oklahoma, according to population. One reason is be¬ 
cause on November 16. 1907, we did not have any schoolhouses, and 
we have built all of them since. 

The Chairman. I notice from reading casually the law of Okla¬ 
homa that it is practically the law of the District of Columbia to-day. 

Mr. Davenport. I have not compared the law here. I do not care 
what ministerial body you vest that power in, the workings will be 
the same. 

The Chairman. No question about that. All the parties here 
agree that it will be under the board of education. That is not in 
issue. Have you carefully examined the proposed law? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.. Ill 

Mr. Davenport. \es; and I see that it is somewhat different from 
our statute. 

The Chairman. You think it is better than your statute? 

Mr. Davenport. I think it is to this extent: I think it is more 
specific and will prevent the board from taking arbitrary action. 

Mr. Crosser. Have you had any trouble of that kind ? 

Mr. Davenport. No, sir; we never had any trouble in that. 

Mr. Grosser. When the opposition party comes into power there 
might be trouble. 

The Chairman. It is not optional, but mandatory. 

Mr. Davenport. Yes. 

The Chairman. And this statute ought to be the same way. 

Mr. Davenport. If a society desired to use the school building, I 
think it ought to have the right to use it, provided there was nothing 
in the purpose of the society or in its meetings to affect detrimentally 
the morality or citizenship of the District. Beyond that the board 
ought not to have any discretionary power. The board ought not to 
be permitted to act arbitrarily in the matter. That would be my 
idea. 

Mr. Mapes. Under the theory of this bill who would determine 
who was going to be permitted to use the building? 

Mr. Davenport. I think the citizenship of the District is so high 
that there would be no difficulty in the matter. However, the school 
board might be charged with the responsibility of seeing that the 
meetings held in these buildings were a benefit to the community and 
not a detriment to the community, to the morals of the citizenship. 
I think the only way that any citizenship can determine whether a 
thing is being used properly or improperly is by attending a meeting 
and ascertaining from observation. 

The Chairman. It is. You say it will be determined by the citi¬ 
zenship. Would you have it determined entirely by the community? 

Mr. Davenport. By the community embraced in the territory—the 
people who take an interest in the work. 

The Chairman. Why do you say the people who take an interest 
in it? It is a group of people of the community, whether they take 
any interest in it or not. 

Mr. Davenport. No. In every community they ought to have a 
certain percentage of the citizenship who take an interest with ref¬ 
erence to public institutions and the educational interests of the 
community. I would leave it to them. There is always a class of 
people in a community that are reputable, and they can determine 
whether the society holding the meetings in the schoolhouses are 
reputable or not. 

If I may be pardoned right there, I would like to say that in each 
community there is a class of people who look after the morality 
of the community, not in any official capacity, but through their 
practice of persuading others to go in the right direction, and they 
perform a great service. For instance, in this practice of per¬ 
suasion that I have mentioned, I would say to those I met and 
talked with, “ We have a magnificent church at such and such a place, 
where we worship God on Sunday, and I would be glad if you can 
come around.” I would tell them that they would have an oppor¬ 
tunity to hear expounded the Gospel in a way that perhaps they had 
never heard it before. In that way I would bring them to traveling 


112 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

in the right direction, merely' through persuasion, without driving 
them. 

I think that is all I have to say. 

The Chairman. We thank you. 

(Whereupon, the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock of the 
same day.) 

AFTER RECESS. 

The subcommittee assembled pursuant to the taking of recess at 
2 o’clock p. m. 

STATEMENT OF REV. WILBUR F. CRAFTS, WASHINGTON, D. C., 
SUPERINTENDENT INTERNATIONAL REFORM BUREAU. 

Mr. Crafts. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I favor the use of 
public schools outside of school hours for the improvement of the 
intelligence and the increase of the unity of the citizens. I think 
the schoolhouse during the day is the best melting pot for the boys 
and girls of many races and many sects and of many classes. So 
the public schools might be made in the evening the melting pot 
for our adult population. 

I understand that the city of Berlin has only 1 per cent foreign- 
born population. The city of London has only 2 per cent foreign- 
born population. I have just been looking up the statistics in ref¬ 
erence to this country and I find that in this country 28 per cent of 
our people are of foreign stock, either immigrants or children of 
immigrants. There has been nothing like it in the history of the 
world. No other such problem ever confronted a Nation like ours. 
We have in this country 156 denominations. We have 34 different 
languages spoken. We have at least three very marked classes of 
population, in addition to these other lines of cleavage. We have 
a class we call capitalists, and they and their families make up what 
we call society. Then we have the other extreme, organized labor, 
and between the two extremes, between those two limits, there is a 
much larger population than in either of the extremes or both of 
them together. It is safe to say that neither the capitalists nor the 
laborers, but the consumers are most liable to suffer when there is a 
clash between capital and labor. 

Europe is on fire with one hatred—race hatred. We have three 
hatreds here. We have the same race hatred here. When the Euro¬ 
pean war is over the feeling between Slav and German is likely to 
be intensified rather than lessened. We have here in this country 
class hatred, which has shown itself in battles much more extensive 
than the Mexican war, in Colorado, in Michigan, and in West Vir¬ 
ginia. Then we have sect hatred. We have three hatreds. 

We have to have a melting pot, where we shall mejt not only the 
boys and girls who are early brought into one American citizenship 
but into ardent patriotism. No boys and girls are more ardent in 
their patriotism than those boys and girls of foreign parentage. We 
have to have a melting pot to bring into one American citizenship 
these manifold races and sects and classes. 

The public school is doing this work in a very effective way. It 
is my privilege to speak about four times a week in public schools. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 113 


I count it the greatest joy of my life, and I should like to give all 
my time to it instead of doing other work. 

I believe there is nothing which is doing so much to break up 
differences and to bring about a single American citizenship as the 
mingling of all sects and races and classes in our public schools. 

In Hoboken, which is nearly entirely a German settlement, a 
barber, when his boy came from school, spoke to him in German. 
The boy answered in English, and the father, shaking his razor at 
him, said to Dr. Hurlbut, who was telling me the story: “ I have 
to thrash that hoy to make him speak German. He wanted a kite 
the other day, and he would not make it out of a German paper. 
He made it out of a copy of the New York Sun,” which was quite 
natural. We want to make the public schools of the country the 
melting pot of our heterogeneous population, so that we may have 
in the future a homogeneous citizenship. That is what the public 
schools are doing with the boys and girls. 

The question is what we should do with the adult citizenship never 
so much separated and apart as now. 

When I was a boy the foreigners coming into a new neighborhoc d 
lived mostly with American neighbors. Now we find whole neigh¬ 
borhoods in our American cities which are made up entirely of 
foreigners and their families. They have their own churches and 
their own stores, and mingling with the foreign population the 
number of the native population is very much less than it used to be. 

There are many communities where I go in which foreigners live 
where I will not hear a word of the English language spoken. I 
have been in the city of New York where I would not hear a word 
spoken except the native dialect, except when I went to some place 
where there were some boys or girls who Avent to the public schools. 

Under these circumstances, which are not unusual, Ave need some 
place Avhere these people can meet, so that they can he Avoven into 
one American citizenship. I believe a well-constructed plan of com¬ 
munity forums—community centers in the public schools—is the only 
available means or the best means we haA T e for bringing together the 
foreigners with the nati\ T es, reaching the people in the whole neigh¬ 
borhood, in something that is a true democracy, with a small d. 
So that I am very fully in sympathy with an increased use of the 
schoolhouses, along the line of increasing, first the intelligence, and 
second the unity of our population. 

But it seems to me there are three principles that ought to be put 
into laAv, as well as laid down in the propaganda that these unselfish, 
ardent friends of a true democracy who are here. We are proud of 
the large amount of unselfish service given by the men of social 
standing and the women of social standing in the community. AVe 
think our President’s daughter as the Helen Gould of Washington 
in such work, as far as her service is concerned, and Ave fully appre¬ 
ciate her interest and efforts. 

As I say, there are three principles that as one of the propagandists 
of this movement I think I ought to call to the attention of this 
committee of Congress, in vieAV of the fact, which ought to be put 
into this bill, if this bill is. needed. The speech of Mr. Blair, the 
president of the board of education, indicates that everything is 
permissive and mandatory, except the question of opening the schools 


114 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

on Sundays. There are three principles which ought to be taken 
into consideration. 

The first is that the use of the public schoolhouses shall be in 
harmony with the purposes for which the schoolhouses were built; 
that is, educational purposes; that is, that the work shall be decidedly 
limited to what is educational. If it goes beyond education into rec¬ 
reation, that shall only be done if the recreation is educational, in 
accordance with the motto of Shakespeare, that motto which is so 
profoundly descriptive of the very finest education. 

All this education work, this particular work, should come under 
that motto. If we have recreation it should be a form of recreation 
that is not only a physical exercise or a social chat, not only a pleas¬ 
ant pastime, but it should be recreation that in some way harmonizes 
with the purpose for which the school buildings have been erected 
at the cost of the taxpayers. 

The use of the schools should be educational, and the law itself 
should hold it to that, or it should be held to that by the board of 
education, or whoever is in control of it. 

It is foolish for us to say the schoolhouses should be open for the 
people for any purpose. This Capitol Building is a public building. 
Can we go in there and hold discussions on any subject in the Hall 
of the Senate? The Senate Building belongs to us. Can we go into 
the Hall of the House of Representatives and hold discussions on 
any subject? The House of Representatives Hall belongs to us. 
But can we or anybody else go in there when those halls are closed 
and hold debates? The Pension Office belongs to us. Can we go 
there because we happen to be the owners of it and use it for any 
purpose other than that for wdiich it was created? Can we go into 
the jail at any time and do what we please in the jail? The jail 
belongs to us. 

It seems to me there has been a great deal of nonsense spoken 
here in regard to this matter, although it Avas not intended to be 
that kind of talk, and I do not want to characterize it too severely. 
But to talk about our owning the schoolhouses in the way that some 
of these good people have talked, to say that we can use them for 
any similar purpose seems to be illogical. Having been built for 
educational purposes, the schoolhouses can never be used for some¬ 
thing that can not be shown to be educational. That, it seems to me, 
is almost self-evident. It would hold in the courts. I believe a 
single taxpayer could go into a court and enjoin the use of a school- 
house for anything that is not educational, or, at any rate, for what 
would be satisfactory to us all. 

I think we are very much in need of the use of schools for educa¬ 
tional purposes. I do not mean that the people should go there and 
study after the fashion of studying from schoolbooks, tired people 
who have been at work all day. But we should find some attractive 
way to give instruction to our men and women who are in need of it. 

We are getting to be a very ignorant nation. It is not true to say 
that this is an educated country. There are fewer people taking a 
full course of study to-day than in former years. I have received 
the statistics in regard to that matter from the Chief of the Bureau 
of Education of the United States, showing that of 100 people of 
school age—from 5 to 18 years—20 are not in any school. That is 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 115 

due to truancy and child labor in about equal proportion. Ten per 
cent are in private schools, and 70 out of each 100 are in public 
schools; and of those 70 only 5 are going through high school, and 
only 2 out of the 100 go through college. 

The statistics given by Dr. Davidson, formerly superintendent 
of schools in this city and now superintendent of schools in the city 
of Pittsburgh, at a meeting of teachers in Pittsburgh recently, show 
that after the fifth year in school 25 per cent of the pupils in our 
city schools are leaving school. They are only five years in school. 
That is not education, that is disturbed ignorance. That is just 
enough education to allow a man to read trashy literature, to make a 
man able to forge a note. It is not enough to develop his character 
or his will power, or to make him a safe member of society, able to 
earn his own living or to become a good, self-respecting citizen. He 
becomes the victim either of a despot or a demagogue. 

So we want the evening schools. They ought to be made attrac¬ 
tive. They ought to be such as they had in the city of Cleveland 
a few years ago, where they had a course of 10 lectures for a dollar, 
where the workingmen might come. They gave those people 10 
10-cent books in a course of 10 lectures on popular subjects, such as 
science or civics, for a dollar. That made a very instructive course. 

I believe if we would adopt some such idea, have courses of lectures 
in the public schools in the evening for the purpose of educating our 
citizens, getting our foreign citizens ready for citizenship, these 
evening gatherings in the public schools would be the best kind of 
places for young lawyers to give talks on questions of American 
citizenship. 

I would form all over the country first voters’ leagues, and I would 
give these people that sort of lectures during the year before they 
were to cast their first presidential vote. And in the years following, 
the four years between the time they cast their vote and the time they 
were to cast their second vote, they should be under instruction, in 
order to make themselves intelligent in matters of citizenship. I 
believe that would be a most practical and valuable use of the public 
schools in the evening. 

I have seen young people take up courses of that kind and become 
just as enthusiastic about it as if they were eating bonbons and 
dancing. The young people could be made interested, and the older 
people, too. if we had these evenings really instructive occasions. 
Of course, everybody is interested if there is just simply a discus¬ 
sion or a scrap! There is a good deal of interest when there is a 
scrap going on, and I know from experience that more men go to the 
meetings of the American board when they think there is going to 
be a fight on some theological question. There is no doubt a forum 
has some attractions in that respect. But when we make them not 
too much places of controversy but make these evenings in the 
schools instructive by means of having popular lectures, biograph¬ 
ical courses, and courses of reading we would be doing a tremendous 
service. The people should read more about our greatest citizens. I 
had as good a time this summer as I ever had in reading novels, or as 
anybody else ever had reading novels, and I read again the lives of 
Washington. Franklin, and Lincoln, and found real delight at the 
seaside. I believe we can make these thoughtful studies of the great 
leaders of our country the basis for real preparation for citizenship, 


116 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


which should be the principal thought and the principal thought and 
the principal idea kept in mind in connection with these forms. 

The second principle I would lay down is that as these school 
buildings belong to all the people, their use as forums should be 
under rules of the board of education, or the board of education 
should be authorized to O. K. the rules which should be provided 
for the use of the buildings, and the board of education should 
have the authority or power to veto any provisions of the rules. 
The rules for the use of these buildings should provide that the 
schoolhouses can not be used to attack one large class or any class of 
citizens. 

Objection has been made that in the schoolhouses where one of the 
forums was held it was broken up because they wanted to use the 
schoolhouse in the movement to get 3-cent fares on the street cars. I 
believe in 3-cent fares, and I believe in 2-cent fares, and in 1-cent 
fares, especially in 2-cent fares. I had good rides in the street cars of 
the city of Glasgow, Scotland, on better cars than we have here, with 
more gentlemanly conductors than we usually have in America, and 
the conductors wore beautiful uniforms, and I only paid 1 cent for 
those rides. I did not pay over 3 cents for a street-car ride anywhere 
in Europe, and I believe in cheap fares. But I do not believe, when 
the owners of the street cars are also the owners of the schoolhouses, 
that we should allow the public-school buildings to be used as a 
propaganda for securing lower street car fares. 

I do not believe that any person who simply has a hobby ought to 
be allowed to use the public schools simply to save the cost of hiring 
a meeting place. I do not believe we have any right to take any 
public property and use it for a mere agitation of that kind. The 
purpose of the forum is to bring the people together. 

Mr. Ward has spoken of the disunity as the thing we want to avoid. 
We must carefully guard the subjects to be taken up in the discus¬ 
sions held in the schoolhouses. We can not have or allow unlimited 
discussion. 

If we had a company of people, all of whom had courtesy, no one 
would attack another, the members of one sect or political party 
would not attack the members of another sect or political party, or 
attack any other section of the community, and especially if it was a 
company of laborers, the members of that company would not attack 
a capitalist if they were not there, there would be no objection to 
that. Men who have courtesy do not do those things. 

We have to make rules for those things. Men who do those things 
are morons; they are full-grown men in body, but not in mind or 
character; and men of that kind always get into these meetings. 

There has got to be somebody to make rules, and I think the board 
of education should have the authority to make and revise the rules, 
and we should hold them responsible. 

I think, in that connection, that resolutions adopted by a meeting 
held in such a building are entirely inappropriate on divisive ques¬ 
tions. Let us discuss them, but not pass resolutions in regard to them 
in meetings held in public-school buildings. We might go quite a 
piece in this matter of discussion, but there ought to be no small sec¬ 
tion of the community gathering in one of those places, and when 
those meetings are held there ought not to be resolutions adopted in 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 117 

connection with any subject. The people that have the less attractive 
homes are likely to be there, and those that have fewer duties in the 
church or in their fraternities, and persons that have the least impor¬ 
tant duties in life are likely to be there, and there ought to be an ex¬ 
clusion of resolutions in meetings of that kind. It is the policy of the 
largest and best conventions to-day not to adopt resolutions, but to 
compare notes, with reference to subjects of a divisive character. 

Then I come to the point. The public schools should never be used 
to antagonize any American institutions. That is a fundamental 
principle. I do not agree with those who have made a great deal of 
the janitor question. Even for week nights the janitor ought to have 
help. But I do not think the Government of the United States ought 
to be asked to pay the janitor for doing that work. Our people ought 
to be able to pay for that service, and that is a small matter. The 
people might pay, say 25 cents a quarter, and thus give them a sense 
of supporting their own institution, after the Government has pro¬ 
vided it. The janitor question is the easiest thing to dispose of. 

The janitor can be given an assistant who can be trained to attend 
to the work in the evening, and the janitors ought to be paid for that, 
even if there is no Sunday session. The janitors ought not to have 
this extra wfcrk without extra pay, and there ought to be enough 
mone}^ to have an assistant janitor, who is trained sufficiently so that 
the board of education can trust him with the valuable property of 
the public. 

So the main thing is not this question in regard to the janitors or 
the question in regard to some teacher having to work on Sunday. 
That can easily be adjusted, and I should be entirely willing to leave 
that to the judgment and discretion of the board of education. 

The main thing is this, that Sunday, coming down from the very 
creation of the Republic, with marriage, is one of the most funda¬ 
mental institutions of the Nation, and no one has any right to tamper 
Avith that. Because a little local community may or may not Avant to 
use a public building on that day, no one has a right to tamper with 
that fundamental principle. It is a great, fundamental thing in our 
country. 

There are tAVo fundamental institutions in this country which 
foreigners always recognize—the little red schoolhouse and the quiet 
Sunday on which thoughtful men have in 28 years 4 years of Sab¬ 
bath rest and quiet. That means that in 28 years a man who keeps 
that as a quiet day, Avho keeps the Sabbath, has as much time for 
self-improvement as he would have in a college course, and more. 
The ordinary college student has a good deal of his time occupied 
Avith other things than mere self-improvement in the Avay of educa¬ 
tion. That is why the American people ha\e been able to create a 
democracy. They have one day of quiet and peace. 

Look at the countries in South America. They have our institu¬ 
tions, but they have a Sunday which is devoted to bull fights and 
cockfights, and to Avork, and to labor, and to dissipation, and that 
is what makes the people of those countries groAvn-up children. They 
are the tools either of the demagogue or the revolutionist, or the 
tools of a despot. 

So this American institution is a deep and fundamental affair in 
our country. 


118 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Most of those who have favored this bill have said that it is none 
of the business of this committee to deal with the question as to 
whether or not these schoolhouses shall be open on Sunday, but I 
want to say very emphatically that it is. 

It has been said here that it is none of the business of this commit¬ 
tee whether these schools are used on Sunday or not. If you please, 
I want to speak very closely to that question. I want to propose an 
amendment to this bill in the language of the Constitution, on page 
4, line 24, that “ the building shall be available for use for such a 
center and at such a time, Sundays excepted, as may be requested by 
said association of adult persons.” 

It has been intimated that this Government has not anything to 
do with the Sunday question. But it is in the Const it uion. The 
most important work done under the Constitution is the work of the 
President in considering bills brought before him to signature, and 
under the Constitution he is allowed 10 days, Sundaj^s excepted, in 
which to approve or disapprove bills, and in that phrase “ Sundays 
excepted,” there is the very foundation stone of this country, from 
the time of the sailing of Columbus and the landing of the Pilgrims 
on Plymouth Rock down to the present day. Sundays excepted has 
been the fundamental law and custom. 

When the Congress of the United States meets it is Sundays ex¬ 
cepted. It was an unfair thing to say, as somebody said here, that 
Congress does not observe Sunday. Congress gathers on Sundays 
out of courtesy to hold eulogies for the dead. Congress performs all 
its official activities, and all legislatures of all the States, and all the 
courts and schools and colleges perform their active work “ Sundays 
excepted.” 

There is nothing in this country more fundamental in law and cus¬ 
tom than Sundays excepted, and in this law we should conform to 
that law and custom by incorporating in it this universal principle, 
making Sundays excepted. 

Mr. Focht. Business contracts made on Sundays are not legal. 

Mr. Crafts. That is absolutely universal. A man can not make a 
note that is legal on that day. It is a dies non. That means it is 
not a day for legislative or business life or for the carrying on of 
ordinary activities of life. It is the day of days for the development 
of the higher intelligence and the higher qualities of life. 

I want to cite an instance to you where Sunday has been officially 
recognized by the United States Government. Whenever this Nation 
has adopted an exposition—an exposition, educational, if you please, 
where there is a bazaar, a museum, and all that sort of thing, all of 
a very high educational character—every single exposition this 
country has adopted nationally has been adopted with the inclusion 
of the words “ Sundays excepted.” 

There was an exposition at Philadelphia in 1876, and that was 
closed on Sundays by vote of the trustees and directors, responding 
to the sentiment of the country. At Chicago we closed that exposi¬ 
tion on Sundays by law. but the local authorities violated it. Con¬ 
gress said Sundays should be excepted in the opening of the Chi¬ 
cago exposition. 

When we celebrated the purchase of the Louisiana Territory from 
the French, at St. Louis in 1904, I myself had the privilege of writ- 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 119 

ing the law that said there should be a contract entered into to close 
the gates on Sunday. 

Then, when we had the exposition at Jamestown, in 1907, celebrat¬ 
ing the settlement of Virginia, the same thing was done. 

Those are the only four expositions adopted by the Nation, and in 
every case this Nation said the Sabbath shall be observed, rather 
than that we should have the French Sunday of St. Louis. 

I think I need not dwell upon that. I want to emphasize this. 
There is nothing I have heard in this hearing that seems to be so 
much in need of combating than the idea that we shall have local 
option on the Ten Commandments. 

Some of the speakers have said that the local opinion of a school 
district—what matter if it is a crooked ward or a saloon district— 
that the local opinion of a single school district, or the opinion of 
the whole District of Columbia shall decide. In this case the schools 
are owned by the whole country. We have all paid taxes which have 
gone toward the expense of building the school buildings, the taxes 
paid by the people from one end of the country to the other, and 
they own these school houses. 

It is a national matter. Suppose we were in some other community 
where it w T as a State matter or even a city matter, or even a local dis¬ 
trict. There is no case where any local option applies to a question of 
this kind. You might just as well say that the local communities 
might decide in regard to a law governing monopoly. The question in 
reference to the observance of the Sabbath day is just as fundamental 
in this country as marriage, and we have always observed it. 

I want to give you a quotation from a decision of the Supreme 
Court of the United States. Some people think it is a question of 
the churches, but the Supreme Court of the United States is on 
record in this matter in relation to the observance of Sunday. I am 
going to quote to you a part of a decision of the Supreme Court that 
covers this case, as to whether or not it is the business of this com¬ 
mittee to take into consideration whether these buildings shall be 
open on Sunday. It is certainly the business of this committee to 
regard American institutions when they are dealing with the use 
of buildings belonging to the whole people. 

This decision of the Supreme Court was a unanimous decision, and 
it was delivered by the late Mr. Justice Field on March 10, 1885. It 
is found in 113 U. S., page 710. It says: 

“Laws setting aside Sunday as a day of rest are upheld not from 
any right of the Government to legislate for the promotion of relig¬ 
ious observances but from its right to protect all persons from the 
physical and moral debasement that comes from uninterrupted labor. 
Such laws have always been deemed beneficial and merciful laws, 
especially to the poor and defendent. to the laborers in our factories 
and workshops, and in the heated rooms of our cities, and the valid¬ 
ity has been sustained bv the highest courts of the States.” 

It is not true that it is no business of a committee of Congress 
or of Congress whether Sunday shall be regarded in this bill. It is 
not a matter that ought to be left to anybody’s discretion. We are 
glad to have it in good hands now. but it is not a matter in this bill or 
in the present law that should be left to the discretion of anybody 
whether anything that will affect the national observance of Sunday 


120 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


shall be decided by the local sentiment, by the sentiment of a school 
district, or a larger community. 

The right arm, the most important part of the Sabbath reform, is 
the promotion of the religious Sabbath; its left arm, the preservation 
of the civil Sabbath. These two things, the Christian Sabbath on 
the one hand and the American Sabbath on the other, are as distinct 
as my two arms that resemble and cooperate, and yet are by no 
means the same. 

This distinction is itself an answer to most of the objections to Sab¬ 
bath laws, which rest chiefly to the false assumption that they are 
enforcements of a duty to God, punishments of a sin against God. 
We make no dissent from the inference that Christ’s words, “ Ren¬ 
der to Cajsar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that 
are God’s,” forbid Christians to enforce by civil law anything that 
is only a duty to God, or to punish by civil law anything that 
is only a sin against God. It is admitted, however, by our opponents 
that it is the province of civil law to enforce man’s duties to man and 
especially to punish crimes against man. It is exactly on this ground 
that Sabbath laws forbid Sunday work and Sunday dissipation, 
namely, as crimes against man. A notorious outlaw made the pious 
* statement, “ I never rob a poor man.” Probably he does not kill a 
dead man. To rob a poor man of his purse or coat is only petty lar¬ 
ceny. But it is grand larceny to steal the poor man’s weekly rest 
day, his “ home day,” his independence day. Ceaseless toil is slow 
murder. 

Sunday laws are not “ religious legislation,” because they come 
from the Bible any more than the laws against adultery, which are 
as distinctly a part of biblical morality as Sabbath laws. Both the 
Bible and the codes of the most advanced governments forbid mur¬ 
der, theft, adultery, false witness, and work on the Sabbath. Re¬ 
ligion renders to God the things that are God’s by forbidding these 
things chiefly as sins against God. Government renders to Caesar the 
things that are Caesar’s by forbidding them as crimes against man. 
As a Seventh-day Adventist “sentinel tract” against “religious 
legislation” says: “Legislation against crime is not religious legis¬ 
lation. It is legislation on morality purely on a civil basis.” 

Put, then, into the religious Sabbath as its watermark, the word 
“ sin,” relating to wrongs done to God, and into the civil Sabbath 
as its watermark, “ crime,” referring to wrongs done to man. 

There are many who hold the theory which I neither affirm here 
nor deny that the State is accountable to God, as well as the indi¬ 
vidual and the church, and should forbid itself to sin, and may there¬ 
fore forbid Sabbath breaking on higher grounds than the wrong it 
brings to man, but I wish to show that there are grounds enough 
that are purely human and humane to justify him who holds the 
most secular theory of Government in defending the civil Sabbath. 
Even on the “ let-alone ” view of Government as only a police force 
to protect men against infringments on their rights, the civil Sab¬ 
bath can be amply vindicated. 

Recent Sabbath legislation has aimed only to make a “ dies non,” 
a no day, not a holy day, an empty day, opportunity for worship for 
him who wishes to worship, for rest in other ways to others. Priv¬ 
ilege is the very definition of the civil Sabbath. “The Sabbath 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 121 

was made for man,” said Christ. They echo this saying who defend 
the Sabbath, not by appealing only or chiefly to God’s will, but—to 
use a Constitutional term—to “ the general welfare.” 

“ Whose is the image and superscription ” ? cry the opponents of 
Sabbath laws; and they answer, “The Lord’s,” for it is called “ The 
Lord’s Day.” But the Lord of the Sabbath says it was “ made for 
man,” and so stamps it “man’s day” also. It is only man’s part in 
the day that American Sabbath laws defend. 

A homely illustration or two will make this point clear. A 
shrewd Iowa farmer put up in his melon patch this sign: “Bovs, 
do not touch these melons, for they are green and God sees you.” 
The church exhorts men against Sunday work and Sunday dissipa¬ 
tion because God sees and will punish; but the State forbids these 
things because they are unhealthy to the body politic, physically, 
mentally, morally, and politically. A college president, having dis¬ 
covered two sophomores hazing, called them into his presence while 
his wrath was warm, and said: “Gentlemen, such conduct is dis¬ 
pleasing to God, and what’s more, I won’t stand it.” The church 
says of Sabbath desecration: Such conduct is displeasing to God; 
but the State says of Sunday work: What is more to us, charged to 
protect faithfully human rights, we won't stand it—the perpetual 
treadmill of toil, labor without leisure. The only clause of mine 
that even the masters of sophistry can pervert into a seeming sup¬ 
port of the idea that Sabbath laws are “ religious legislation ” is the 
following: “A weekly day of rest has never been permanently se¬ 
cured in any land except on the basis of religious obligation.” That 
means that back of the laAv there must be an approval of it in the 
public conscience, as back of marriage laws; but the Sabbath laws, 
like the marriage laws, can be justified on hygienic, social, and moral 
grounds to those who reject the religious ones. 

Sabbath laws are consistent with liberty in that they ars laws for 
the prevention of cruelty to animals, in that they are laws of health, 
in that they are laws for increasing the national wealth, in that they 
are laws for harmonizing the relations of capital and labor, in that 
they are laws for the protection of the home, in that they are laws 
for the prevention of crime, in that they are laws for the protection 
of one of the chief historic institutions of the Nation, in that they 
are, in short, laws of national self-preservation. 

I want to bring to your attention another point which has not been 
completely stated. I am not a pastor, and so I am not interested in 
keeping up a congregation. I preached 21 years as a pastor and I 
have been 28 years a preacher at large. I see religion in civics, and 
I preach it as the second hemisphere of religion every Sunday and 
often on w 7 eek days. So I am not interested in maintaining a con¬ 
gregation. 

But I want to say there is a strong argument for the churches in 
this District against this bill from the standpoint that the State must 
not put a new and additional competition against the churches in 
the very difficult task they have of raising good citizens. The com¬ 
munity of Washington expects the churches to develop good citizens, 
and if they do not develop good citizens the blame is laid on the 
churches. 

Thomas Jefferson was not an orthodox man. as we consider ortho¬ 
dox men, but Jefferson said the perpetuity of the Nation depended 


122 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

largely upon the Sunday school. There were not the influences in 
Jefferson’s time to retard the development of good citizens as there 
are in these days. Nowadays we have the motion pictures and addi¬ 
tional attractions of that kind, including baseball games on Sundays, 
So if we are going to have some additional attractions, just as the 
opening of these schoolhouses for the uses of forums on Sundays, 
which, if they are going to be a success at all, must be made attractive, 
you are competing with the splendid work of the Young Men’s 
Christian Association and the Young Women’s Christian Associa¬ 
tion. two places where people of all creeds are welcome, where no 
proselyting is done, and Hebrews, as well as all other classes of peo¬ 
ple. are welcome. There is room here in our great National Library, 
the Congressional Library, this wonderful library, and in the city 
library. There is no need of putting up this for the sake of keeping 
people out of the saloons. It is simply putting another difficulty in 
the way of the church doing its work of making good citizens. 

And I say, further, the church people own at least half of the 
schoolhouses. Seventy per cent of the people of wealth have been 
brought into the churches because they got their wealth through their 
integrity. I think it is shown by statistics that from TO to 90 per 
cent of the people of the first hundred people in wealth are active 
Christians, and they would never have gotten the wealth they have 
if they had been dissipated and wild in their childhood. It is these 
people who are the owners of the school buildings, who believe we 
must develop citizenship by appealing to the highest and noblest 
motives. 

Suppose the figures are wrong. The churches form a very large 
percentage of our population. Forty per cent of the people in this 
country are members of the churches. At least 80,000,000 of the 
100,000,000 people of this country are more or less identified with 
church congregations. Some of them do not attend very regularly; 
but if you divide the people, and put the church people on one 
side and the nonchurch people on the other side, there would be 
some good people who are not in the churches. I think everybody 
would admit that the majority of the good people who are stanading 
for the altruistic life of the country are on that side. These buildings 
belong to them. They are at least half owners. 

It is not fair: it is not logical: it is not in accordance with the pur¬ 
poses of the forum and this community service to take the school- 
houses and use them for this purpose on Sundays, when, in the judg¬ 
ment of the preachers, it will increase the difficulties of their task. 
It is not in accordance with the principles which should govern the 
proper use of public property, to say nothing of the principles of 
religion or American institutions—it is not in accordance with those 
principles to put a new competitor in the way of the ministers. 

It was never so hard in the history of this country for the ministers 
to get the people and keep them. There are so many other attractions. 

Suppose you have these buildings open on Sundays. It will take 
away from the churches the very ones who need them most. Boys 
will be drawn away by these attractions, and a little later in life, 
along in adolescent years, which are the most critical years, those 
will be the boys to which this very attraction would appeal. The 
use of these public buildings on Sundays would hinder the work of 




' COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 123 

the churches, and instead of leaving the field open to them, it would 
be putting the state against the church, and that is a good deal worse 
than having the state and the church. It puts the one against the 
other. 

I have just one other point to make, Mr. Chairman. When we 
hold a forum on Sunday afternoon, under the present circumstances, 
the people who gather there would not be a balanced, representative 
company of the community such as we ought to have when we discuss 
public questions. 

I believe in wide-open debate, so far as it can be had, and I should 
welcome almost any kind of discussion within reasonable terms. I 
am a Fabian Socialist, believing in the evolutionary development of 
municipal ownership, and I should like to see such a forum as the 
labor forum of New York, where every speaker who talks is going to 
be subject to being cross-questioned. 

I have been since April, 1888—for 28 years—shaking at hearings 
before congressional committees, and I think the cross-questions by 
the members of the committee are very illuminating. It makes us 
all the sharper intellectually, and it is a good thing. I am very much 
in favor of the system which is in existence in England, where every 
man has a legal right to interrupt a speaker at any point. I think 
that feature is very valuable. 

But suppose we have these meetings on Sunday afternoon. The 
preachers are not there; the deacons and elders are not there: the 
young men and young women in the churches are not there. What 
do we have? 

The men of the labor unions are having their meetings on Sunday 
afternoons, and I never saw anything so stormy as a Sunday after¬ 
noon meeting of a labor union. I never heard any capitalists talk 
against labor unions as hard as the men in the labor unions talk 
against each other when they get. together and talk economics. 

There are no church people at these Sunday afternoon forum meet¬ 
ings. It is not a balanced meeting. There is no conservative with 
the radical. If we have the meetings on Wednesday nights, for in¬ 
stance, then I would believe in bringing in every element of the com¬ 
munity or the representatives of every element in the community. 
Then I think it would be entirely possible to have the whole com¬ 
munity represented. 

What do you get on Sundays? You get just the radical element, 
and you get the people who do not agree with anybody else on any¬ 
thing. 

If you announce a forum, you get also the men who can not get an 
audience anywhere else. You get a man who is not connected with 
any fraternity, who is not in the Masons, who is not in the church, 
who is not in the labor unions, who can not get anybody to agree with 
him, and he is going to come there and have his innings. 

I suppose the statement made here this morning in reference to an 
occurrence in the Washington Irving School in New York is true, 
and if it is, it illustrates what I am saying. But I would not like to 
believe, until I have the indisputed evidence, that any man said, 
“To hell with the Stars and Stripes.” It was a discussion of in¬ 
censed antagonism. 

It was not a meeting Avhere there was an opportunity for all the 
interests of the community to be represented. On any other time ex- 


124 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

cept Sunday afternoon if the conservative element is not represented 
it is their own fault, and they are not likely to be represented at a 
gathering on Sunday afternoon. The organization forces of the 
community are likely 7 to be bus} 7 on other work on that day and are 
less likely to be represented than any other class. 

I think the only other thing T wish to say is to emphasize again 
my idea that the present method is better than that proposed in this 
bilL 

Mr. Blair, the president of the board of education, has very ad¬ 
mirably stated the case here. It seems to me, while I was rather in 
favor of this bill, with the one amendment I have referred to, until 
I heard him. there is no reason why this committee or Congress 
should take any action, in view of the fact that he is not giving the 
privileges on tfie week days to anybody who asks for them, and that 
he is asking Congress, gradually, for all the appropriations he thinks 
are needed, whi<*h will come in the regular District of Columbia 
appropriation bill. I do not agree with him in the matter of the 
Sunday opening; I think public sentiment is against it. 

I would say in that connection, and it is perhaps the last thing I 
will say in this talk, unless there are some questions which I am to 
answer, that there are some things that no majority of a school dis¬ 
trict, or of the District of Columbia, or of the United States has 
any right to do. under the ruling of the Supreme Court. This state¬ 
ment made by our fathers that all power comes from the con¬ 
sent of the Government, is not true, and our Supreme Court does 
not hold it to be true. The Supreme Court said that any question 
of public health or public morals can not be settled by legisla¬ 
tion. If Congress attempts to do that the Supreme Court will set 
it aside. If the legislature of a State attempts to do it, the highest 
court of the State will set it aside, and if it comes from the State to 
the Supreme Court of the United States, then the Supreme Court 
will set it aside. 

If that were attempted to be done in any question of public health 
or public morals by 90 per cent of the voters of the Nation, the 
Supreme Court would say it can not be done. They would veto us 
all. It is the noblest bit of righteousness which has ever existed, 
not only that no legislature can do it, but not even the people them¬ 
selves can do it in connection with questions of public health or 
public morals. It can not be done by any legislature. That is the 
decision of the Supreme Court. 

If this question in regard to Sunday is a question of health and 
morals; if. as our great men have said—Washington. Lincoln, and 
others—that morality is linked with religion, and religion with the 
Sabbath, we can not have a safe, popular government except it be 
based on morality, and such a question can not be decided by a ma¬ 
jority of the people, much less by any legislative body. 

I want to say frankly to the committee that I do not think the 
discussion of civics on Sunday is at all out of keeping with the day. 
It is simply a question of having those discussions in another place. 
We have discussions of civics on Sunday afternoons in the Young 
Men’s Christian Association by Members of Congress; and discus¬ 
sion of great matters of Christian statesmanship and morals; and 
there is no harm in discussing morals or in having discussions of 
ethics; It is entirely appropriate to take up matters of health, which 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 125 


is closely related to morals. It is not that those things are improper, 
but it is a question as to whether they shall be passed upon by legis¬ 
lative authority granting the use of any public buildings for that 
purpose against the protest of a large majority of the population. 

My points are these: That if the use of schoolhouses is granted 
for community purposes, the law should provide that they shall be 
all under the control of the board of education: and that the exer¬ 
cise of that privilege shall be in harmony with the educational pur¬ 
poses of the building; and that there shall be some provision to pre¬ 
vent them from being used as places for the spreading of propa¬ 
gandas, or for the purpose of attacking any particular section of the 
country, or for the purpose of discussing hobbies that are essentially 
antagonistic of American institutions; and in that connection I re¬ 
iterate what I said before, that “ Sundays excepted,*' which is in the 
Constitution, in our customs, and in our laws should be in this bill, 
to harmonize it with our American principles and institutions. 

STATEMENT OF MR. W. H. ROBERTSON. REPRESENTING THE 

JANITORS OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS OF THE DISTRICT OF 

COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Robertson. Mr. Chairman, since this bill has been mentioned 
we have a couple of objections to offer, and one is that in a set of 
resolutions we passed at our union meeting we went on record as 
being opposed to this bill because it does not provide for any increase 
in the janitor force. We, as a body of men, are required to work on 
an average of 72 hours a week. In many cases Ave work much longer 
than that. 

This bill would compel us to work from 100 to 120 hours a week, 
and that would be beyond our hpysical ability. 

We would suggest, if this bill is to be enacted into law. it provide 
for additional janitor service—that is, that the janitors be duplicated. 

Mr. Johnson. You mean that the janitor force should be doubled? 

Mr. Robertson. Where this community forum is held that there 
should be two janitors in the building where these meetings are held. 
Even at the present time, with the additional service required of jani¬ 
tors. the hours are so long that the janitors are. in many cases, 
almost exhausted—played out. 

I myself, in the building where I was before I was assigned to the 
building where I am at the present time, put in about 13 hours a day 
in the winter time, and when I got home in the evening—I had a 
long way to go and it took me about an hour to get home—I have 
very little time to myself. I had three spells of sickness and that 
was time absolutely Tost. There is nothing to cover that. Now, to 
add two evenings a week means that it will be physically impossible 
for us to do the work. If any more service is required of us we will 
not be able to perform it. 

The janitors are not taking any attitude against the people in con¬ 
nection with the forum; it is merely an attitude of protection. 

Mr. Johnson. The only thing you and the Central Labor Union 
care about in connection with this^ matter is the question of janitor’s 
pay? 

Mr. Robertson. The question of janitor's pay and also the ques¬ 
tion as to where the janitor is to stand in regard to the matter of 


126 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


authority. The janitor is answerable to the board of education 
when the principal of the school is not in charge of the building. We 
would like to know where we would stand in that regard if this bill 
should become a law. That is the whole question. 

Mr. Mapes. What is done with the books of the pupils after the 
school is closed and before the school is opened the next morning? 

Mr. Robertson. In nearly all cases the books are left in the desks 
of the pupils. 

Mr. Focht. Do the janitors belong to any union? 

Mr. Robertson. Yes, sir; we are unionized. We have about two- 
thirds of the members of the school janitors’ force in the union. 
Those who are not in the union are not there because it is a matter 
of financial impossibility. They are with us in principle and 
thought, but we have a good many janitors in schools who are only 
getting $25 a month. 

Mr. Focht. Have you any civil-service protection? 

Mr. Robertson. We are under civil service, as far as the board 
of education is concerned. The recommendation of the superin¬ 
tendent of schools to the board of education is necessary. 

The Chairman. What financial objections are in the way? 

Mr. Robertson. The laws of the American Federation of Labor 
require that there shall be a certain amount of dues. A great many 
of these men have families and they have to go away in the evening 
and work in order to earn more money to help out in their living 
expenses. 

Mr. Focht. What do you get ? 

Mr. Robertson. I get $50 a month, for 13 hours a day, and three 
times during the winter I lost money on account of sickness, between 
$8 and $10 at one time, about $16 at another time, and about $6. I 
think, at another time. Dr. Sullivan, of 600 Seventh Street SW., 
told me that my sickness was entirely due to exhaustion. 

Mr. F ocht. What is the designation of your union ? 

Mr. Robertson. We are federated with the American Federation 
of Labor. We are known as the School Custodians and Janitors’ 
Union of the District of Columbia, Federal Labor Union 14596 of 
the American Federation of Labor. 

Mr. Focht. You observe their rules and regulations and con¬ 
tribute to the support of it ? 

Mr. Robertson. Yes. 

Mr. Focht. And you only get $50 a month for 13 hours a day? 

Mr. Robertson. In the eight-room building. The highest salary 
we get is $75 a month, and that is paid to the janitor of a building 
which is worth about $750,000. the McKinley High School. 

Mr. Focht. How much property do you have control of? 

Mr. Robertson. We have control of $2,000,000 worth of property. 

April 13 , 1916 . 

Resolved, That the Central Labor Union of the District of Columbia hereby 
goes on record as being opposed to the bill now in Congress of the United States 
of America known as H. It. 12653, a bill to provide for the use of public-school 
buildings in the District of Columbia as community forums and other purposes, 
and that this union further goes on record as being opposed to any other bill 
for like purposes that does not provide for the janitors’ compensation or that 
tends to transfer authority from its present source. 

Passed unanimously by the Central Labor Union of the District of Columbia, 
who represent between 30,000 and 35,000 people of the District of Columbia. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 127 


Whereas there is now pending in Congress a bill known as H. It. 12653, which 
provides for the use of public-school buildings of the District of Columbia as 
community forums and other purposes; and 
^ hereas this bill takes all discretionary powers from the board of education in 
regard to such uses of school buildings and vests the said power in the Com¬ 
missioners of the District of Columbia, who are not familiar with conditions 
that exist in the various schools; and 

\\ hereas the Custodian and Janitors’ Union has already gone on record as be¬ 
ing opposed to any curtailment in the power of the board of education; and 
^ hereas there is no apparent need for such change of power from the board 
of education to the Commissioners of the District of Columbia; and 
W hereas the bill proposes to give to the said commissioners discretionary powers 
that may be used in the interest of one or more sections of the city at the 
cost of the other sections; and 

Whereas it fixes a salary for the secretaries to be appointed and makes no pro¬ 
vision for the salaries of the janitors, engineers, and their assistants; and 
Whereas the appropriation that has been asked for is not sufficient to pay the 
salary of secretaries and assistants regardless of any other expenses; and 
Whereas it does not provide for any increase in the janitorial force, which now 
works an average of 72 hours a week and which would then probably be re¬ 
quired to work from 100 to 120 hours a week, which would be beyond human 
endurance; and 

Whereas it does not appropriate pay for janitors, etc., but directs the board of 
education to pay them out of public funds for the use of said schools, and as 
the board of education has no funds for this purpose or that could be legally 
used for this purpose; and 

Whereas this bill violates every principle of unionism in that it allows for no 
rest, sets no limit for hours of duty, gives no pay for additional work, but 
permits a man to be worked 365 days and nights a year. Therefore be it 
Resolved, That Federal Labor Union 14596, of the American Federation of 
Labor, known as School Custodians and Janitors’ Union of the District of Co¬ 
lumbia, hereby goes on record as being opposed to said bill on the aforementioned 
grounds; and be it further 

Resolved, That a copy of this resolution be presented to the Central Labor 
Union, with a request for their indorsement and active cooperation in prevent¬ 
ing the passage of the said bill. 

W. H. Robertson, 

H. F. McQueeney, 

T. .T. Jones, 

Committee _ 

STATEMENT OF MR. T. J. JONES, JANITOR McKINLEY HIGH 
SCHOOL, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Mr. Jones. Mr. Chairman, I should like to add just a few words 
to what Mr. Robertson has said. Everything he has said is correct. 

I have been a janitor for 20 years, and I have come from the bot¬ 
tom up—from the kindergarten up. It might be well to tell you 
what $75 man has to do. In the building of which I have charge I 
have four helpers. The complete building has 112 rooms. I have 
64,900 square feet of floor area; I have 15.100 square feet of hall 
area; I have 3,600 feet of stair area: I have 15,000 square feet of 
sidewalk, which must be swept daily. That makes about 100.000 
square feet to clean. 

Then I have 16,000 square feet which must be washed weekly. I 
have 100 wash bowls to take care of; I have 9 drinking fountains, 
42 sinks, and 29 toilets to take care of. I have 507 windows. 

Mr. Lloyd. How many helpers have you ( 

Mr. Jones. Four. 

Mr. Li X)yd. There are five men altogether ? 

Mr. Jones. Yes. Our salaries range from $30 a month to $75 a 
month. In the public schools some of the laborers receive $25 a 


128 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


month. Those men are compelled to be on the job from before the 
school begins until the close of the day’s work. 

Mr. Lloyd. You have no objection to the bill, except in regard to 
the question of the pay of janitors? 

Mr. Jones. I object to the Sunday work. I object to working on 
Sunday. 

Mr. Lloyd. You object to working on Sunday? 

Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you object to the community forum because it 
meets on Sunday ? 

Mr. Jones. I object to the bill as it reads. 

Mr. Lloyd. Because you would have to work on Sunday ? 

Mr. Jones. Yes; and I also think it would be well to explain that 
there should be some given time- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). There is nothing in this bill that says 
anything about Sunday at all. 

Mr. Jones. I suppose it would include Sunday, judging from the 
talk we have had here. 

The Chairman. There is no more in this bill about Sunday than 
there is in the present law. 

Mr. Jones. But there has been a great deal stated about it. 

Mr. Lloyd. I think you would naturally conclude it is a Sunday- 
law bill. 

Mr. Jones. We were asked to indorse this bill. We could not. 

There is another thing to consider. We are responsible to the 
board of education for the class of work we do, how we do it. If 
the forum bill goes through as it reads, they could get into the schools 
at 8 o'clock on Saturday morning, and they might have a morning 
session and an afternoon session, and then, again, they could have a 
night session. That is the only time that we janitors have to clean 
the buildings. If we are deprived of that time to clean the build¬ 
ings, we will probably have the health department coming in after us. 

Mr. Focht. How often does the health department come in? 

Mr. Jones. We do not know when they come in. 

Mr. Focht. Did you ever see them there? 

Mr. Jones. They come on an average of once a week. We hear 
from them through the board of education. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you know ahead of time when they are coming? 

Mr. Jones. Yo: not in time. 

Mr. Focht. Did you ever know them to be there at all? 

Mr. Jones. I have followed them up. 

We want the people who are favorable to this bill to understand 
that the janitors are not against the forum. I think that the past 
record of the janitors will prove that we have tried to do every¬ 
thing to accommodate the public. We want to cooperate in every 
way we can; but when it comes down to working a man seven days 
a week, and not eight-hour days, but 72 hours a week as it is now, 
what will that mean? It will mean that we will be broken in health, 
and the efficiency of our force will be lessened. We have no vacation 
except in July and August, and we have no leave, no sick leave. 
What will be the outcome? When a man gets to be 35 or 40 years 
old he will be broken up, and turned out on the world. I do not 
think the bill is fair on those grounds. 

I thank you very much. Mr. Chairman. 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 129 

STATEMENT OF MRS. C. N. CHIPMAN. 

Mrs. Chipman. I am here as a speaker against this bill from sev¬ 
eral standpoints. Of course the wording of the bill has been mate¬ 
rially changed in the first place, the board of education being sub¬ 
stituted for the commissioners. We feel here in the District of 
Columbia that it was rather an insult to our citizens’ associations. 
We thought that that matter has been settled entirely and that the 
board of education would be left with the power. That is the first 
objection. 

The next objection is: What is the need of this bill, when every¬ 
thing that has been represented as the community work we have at 
present, under our present law ? We haven’t been given a fair chance 
under our present law to know what the board of education and 
our people can do. It has only been in force about a year, and we 
have all kinds of good things at present. I am a great advocate of 
the community center, and all the things that were originally sug¬ 
gested have been materialized. We have all kinds of instructive 
lectures; we have all kinds of young people’s clubs and organizations, 
girl scouts, boy scouts, football, baseball, and playgrounds, and every¬ 
thing under the present law; and we feel that this was on open insult 
to our board of education to weaken their power, the power of men 
who are of unquestioned integrity. 

And another objection is the method which was taken toward our 
board of education in obtaining this bill. It was an open insult to 
our board. Mr. Ward is here, as we know, employed to advance 
this movement. It is not being advanced by citizens; it is being 
advanced by people who have come here for that one purpose. Is it 
an advantage to the States that this thing be placed in the District 
of Columbia without any reason or necessity—that the District of 
Columbia be made a clinic, and if it works here, then the States will 
try it? His method was objectionable to the women of the District 
of Columbia. He came into our women’s organizations, which have 
never been entered in that manner before by a gentleman, and gave 
* a misstatement and a misrepresentation of our board of education. 
He did not read the forum bill; he brought a resolution to the 
bodies of women that were not accustomed to this kind of thing. 
He presented his resolution and on the face of it it looked very fair, 
and he insisted that a vote should be taken at that meeting, while 
he was there. There are 36 organizations in our federation, and 
in less than a week’s time he wanted the constituted delegates from 
each one of these organizations advised as to how they were to vote 
in the federation. So there was no chance to reconsider the matter 
before the federation meeting, and in doing this—the first portion— 
it was not understood by the women. But they awakened to the 
situation and tabled the affair, for a thing that can’t stand investi¬ 
gation for 30 days certainly needs an investigation. This was the 
resolution that he placed before us: 

The people have the right to use the public-school buildings at any time, 
not interfering with the instruction of pupils, that the people desire. 

Whereas the Johnson-Hollis community-forum bill recognizes and estab¬ 
lishes this right, and provides the necessary means by which it may be prop¬ 
erly exercised, therefore we advise the Hollis-Johnson forum bill and urge its 
immediate passage. 

38523—16-9 


130 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

While there was no bill read in the majority of the cases, it looked 
as if the women were getting what belonged to them in having the 
use of the public schools, and it was all done in a rush and the pro¬ 
gram was taken up and the women voted. Where the majority of 
them have reconsidered and revoted, they have voted absolutely 
against the bill, and the other organizations voted to have it tabled 
and to be discussed and voted upon seriatim. 

Of course it did not materialize at the federation, because in the 
meantime the women had awakened to the situation. And for that 
reason I do not consider that we should have a law brought in and 
established in the District of Columbia. The misrepresentation was 
made that the women had to obtain from the board of education 
things which the bureau of education was not organized for. 

We had to apply to them to have them come to you to give us 
rights that had been refused by the board of education. It was an 
injustice to our board of education, who had never refused us a 
single thing that we had asked them for. 

Another very serious objection is that our board of education did 
not build our public schools, and we have them here, the double 
system which has created the small eight-room building. In our 
division of 12 buildings there is only 1 that has an assembly room. 
The other 11 are eight-room buildings, in which we have mothers’ 
clubs meetings, teachers’ organizations, sewing circles, and lectures, 
all kinds of instructive things in the daytime. There is no gas, and 
there are no electric lights in the majority of our buildings. 

In the next place our kindergarten rooms are the rooms that we 
have had for these functions. Do you think it proper to open up our 
eight-room buildings and give the kindergarten room up at night to 
men to come up and sit and expectorate and do as they please during 
the evening, and have these little babies come in the next morning 
and sit down on the floor doing their exercises? Even the janitor 
cleaning all night would not make it hygienically clean, and the 
board of health would refrain from constantly coming to purify the 
rooms. Would you want your babies to get their education under 
those circumstances? There is objection to it. 

In our assembly hall, we have all the privileges that are necessary 
for all kinds of educational purposes. In our assembly hall we can 
seat 1,200 to 1,400, perhaps 1,500 people. I have seen our assembly 
halls packed and jammed by the gatherings for educational purposes. 
That is what we consider our buildings were constructed for, and 
that is the first and prime reason of these buildings. And I have 
seen these gatherings when you could hear a pin drop. It is not 
considered a forum building nor do we want it considered a forum 
building. But I have been in a forum building where it took eight 
policemen to keep the aisles clear in order to comply with the regu¬ 
lations of the fire department. 

As far as calling our educational system antiquated, it may be, 
but yet we have a very excellent system, and we have very excellent 
teachers, and in our division we object very strenuously to anyone 
insinuating anything to the contrary. I do not consider there* is a 
principal that has the interests of the community at heart more than 
our principal has in education. That is what is more essential than 
all else, and yet we have all the club life and all the other things in 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 131 

which he participates to the limit, and he gives us a great deal of 
his extra and spare time. 

The Sunday proposition is a thing that I object to from several 
standpoints. 1 think that this country has progressed very well. 
Some of our best clergymen who are advocating the forum call 
our arguments puritanical arguments. I think they are very good 
arguments. I have the honor and pleasure of being a trustee in a 
school in the State in which the chairman lives. Those girls are 
being educated to go out to help Christianize the world. America 
has spent $14,000,000 to help Christianize the world and to help 
spread the ideas which prevail in this country and in other countries, 
and to-day do you think at this crucial time of world war these 
things are not of importance? I spoke about the ten commandments, 
and one of this class of girls spoke of the old Bible as ancient his¬ 
tory. It has been very good history for us to learn, and I have never 
known a man who is willing to go out and play poker on Sunday 
himself, and go to a forum, that he does not want his wife, who 
is raising his children, to raise them under the protection of the 
church, and under that influence. 

Now, another objection is that 10 people or 20 people, regardless 
of whom they may be or what they may be, can get our public-school 
buildings and go into our kindergarten, which is the only available 
room in the majority of our buildings, and use that as they see fit 
and without any guidance over what they shall do. I can’t see that 
it is a very proper thing to do. 

So that there are those objections of the janitor service and sev¬ 
eral other things, but the greatest objection of all is that I can not 
see any earthly use at all of this bill. 

STATEMENT OF ME. JOHN H. ADEIAANS. 

Mr. Adriaans. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I 
am thoroughly in accord with the idea of using our schoolhouses as 
well for the purpose of educating the youth of our country as for 
the purpose of educating the mature part of the population, and only 
recently our citizens’ association, which is the oldest association in 
existence here in the Capitol, presided over by Dr. Charles M. Em¬ 
mons, one of our best physicians, has applied to the board of edu¬ 
cation for the use of the Eastern High School for the purpose of 
having our meetings hereafter in the Eastern High School, and I 
understand our next meeting will be held there. We propose as a 
part of our citizens’ association to have a forum and to have a cen¬ 
ter, so you understand I am heartily in sympathy with the princi¬ 
ple of using the school buildings for the purpose of a forum and for 
the purpose of a center. I was present when this bill was first read 
at our meeting at the Public Library. Mr. Crosser came there to 
address us and with the hasty consideration of the bill that he had 
given it he expressed some of the objections that he had to it, al¬ 
though he pledged himself at the meeting to vote for it. But since 
that time I have thoroughly digested this bill at the request of our 
association and there are certain very important defects that should 
be removed in amendments to the bill. 


132 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

I wish to invite your attention to a letter I have from the chief of 
police, dated March 8, 1916, which states: 

The census of the District of Columbia, which was taken in November, 1915, 
shows a total of 357,749, of which number 258,940 were white and 98,809 were 
colored. 

Now, in the next place I wish to invite your attention as showing 
that this bill is not as much needed as the people who advocate it 
claim it is, to the fact that there are now 48 parent-teachers’ asso¬ 
ciations of white persons meeting in the schools- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). That has appeared in the record. It is 
not necessary to put that in again. 

Mr. Adriaans. One of the most important objections that I have 
to this bill is that it confines the use of schools to 10 buildings. Now 
we have 175 permanent schools in the District of Columbia. We 
have 12 portable schools. We have 3 vacant schools. We have 4 
in process of construction, and 1 in process of acquiring a site—195 
schools, and I say that if this is a good thing, it ought to be a good 
thing for every one of those 195 schools, and not limit it. Those 
buildings are distributed—109 in the northwest, 13 in the southwest, 
37 in the northeast, and 36 in the southeast, which make 195 build¬ 
ings, 

Now, the next proposition that I wish to invite your attention to 
is the fact that there will be certain expenses incurred if this bill is 
authorized. There will be the expense of $4 for the principal of 
the school, who, by virtue of the fact that he is principal, gets $4 
for presiding over a meeting. There are two assistant principals 
who get $2 apiece for presiding over the center meetings, and there 
is no physical reason to prevent a forum meeting from turning into 
a center meeting in the latter part of the evening. There might be 
one and a half hours for a forum meeting and later on a center meet¬ 
ing, so that there could be earned $8 for the use of that school for one 
night, to say nothing of the janitor. That would imply that there 
would be expenditures to come out of the public purse, to come out 
of the public appropriation, and the question that I ask is, Shall the 
assessment be general on all property or special on property within 
the half mile? Shall the colored man’s property be taxed for the 
white school, and shall the white man’s property be taxed for the 
colored school? 

Is the selecting of these 10 buildings a legislative or an executive 
function? You have heard a good deal from Mr. Ward and Miss 
Wilson that all these things are to adjust themselves, but the very 
object of coming to this Congress and asking them for this legisla¬ 
tion shows, to my mind, that there is a need for legislation, and 
there ought to be complete legislation. There ought not to be incom¬ 
plete legislation, which delegates power that belongs to you gentle¬ 
men to an administrative or an executive body. Let us have all 
these things the way you think they ought to be, expressed in the bill 
when you pass it as an act, and let us not leave these questions to an 
administrative or an executive body, because there is bound to be 
trouble by that course. There is to be favoritism even in the selection 
of these 10 schools. We do not know whether they are all to be 
selected in the northwest or the southwest or the northeast. We 
don’t know how many of them are to be given to the colored race and 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 133 

how many to the white race. All of those things, according to 
Mr. Ward and Miss Wilson, will adjust themselves. I say they will 
not adjust themselves. They must be adjusted in this bill by this 
committee and by this Congress, in order that you may prevent trou¬ 
ble hereafter, and they are a part of the legislative function of this 
body. Now, it certainly is not to be supposed that the colored people 
and the white people will meet in the same building, and yet it is 
possible under this bill that that may occur when 20 colored people 
apply for a Avhite building or when 20 white people apply for a col¬ 
ored building. In this District we have white schools in colored 
localities and colored schools in white localities. By applying the 
one-half-mile limit this condition compels 20 white people to apply 
for a colored school and 20 colored people to apply for a white 
school. A forum is in its essentials not different from a debating 
society. In its original derivation it signifies a meeting place. A 
forum is not a public, but a private institution, notwithstanding it 
may be held in a public school. 

Public money raised by taxation can not be applied to a private use 
without violating the Constitution. Hence an assessment, special or 
general, upon real or personal property under the taxing power to 
meet the expenses of a forum or center is unconstitutional and void. 

For instance, there is in the Library of Congress a portion 
assigned for the use of the blind, where periodical meetings are held. 
The persons conducting these meetings do so from a charitable mo¬ 
tive, and are not paid for doing so, notwithstanding meetings occur 
on public property. Nor do I regard it as constitutional to pay from 
public funds persons conducting such meetings as are contemplated 
in this bill. 

I have given you a general outline. I will give you a specific 
Outline. 

In the first section it is provided that the board may determine 
that the 10 buildings may be all in the northwest, making an inade¬ 
quate or no provision for the southwest, the southeast, or the north¬ 
east. 

Second. The board may determine that the 10 buildings shall be 
all for the white races, making inadequate or no provision for the 
negro race. 

Third. Racial intermixture or intermingling in the 10 buildings is 
not desirable to the white race. 

Fourth. There is no reason for having 10 buildings for forums 
and three for centers, as provided on page 4 of the bill. 

Fifth. The white population of the District is 258,940; the col¬ 
ored population of the District is 98,809, and it would not be possible 
to accommodate 35,774.9 of the population, being one-tenth of the 
total, in one building. 

Sixth. The project is either good or bad. If good it should be 
available to all the population by opening all of the buildings in the 
District, 195 in number. If bad, none should be so opened. 

Seventh. The 10 buildings divided between 44,320 acres, allows 
1 building to 4,332 acres. 

Section. 2. The conditions under which the board permits the 
use of the buildings by 20 or more persons, formed as an association, 
require that each of such persons shall live within a radius of one-half 


134 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

mile of such building, enabling the board to nullify the constitution 
and by-laws of such association in excluding as signatory applicants 
members of said association living beyond the one-half-mile limit, 
yet in good standing in such association. 

Second. The inquisitorial power, wherever lodged, destroys the 
benefits intended to be conferred in the bill. 

Third. The services of a surveyor are requisite to pass on appli¬ 
cations at a minimum expense per year for 10 buildings of $112,000. 

Now I want to make that clear to you gentlemen, as there has 
been nobody here who alluded to that. This bill provides that the 
20 people must live within a half-mile radius of the school. Now, 
it is quite true that some benevolent gentleman got up in the forum 
and said he was willing to make the survey. But he was an unofficial 
person, and we do not know anything about his qualifications to 
make such a survey, and it is very likely that they will want an official 
person to make an official survey, and each one of those people has 
got to be measured to find out if he lives within a half-mile radius, 
and the measurement of that kind would cost a minimum of $5. Any 
surveyor who would do it for less than $5 would be tabooed by 
the association. It would take $100 for the 20 people who are 
entitled to the permit. 

Section 3. First. The procedure provided is cumbrous and un¬ 
necessary; (a) application is to be made to the board; (b) the board 
is to determine teiritorial limits of applicants; ( c ) the board of 
education is to be notified of applications and territorial limits of 
applicants; (d) the board of education shall notify the superin¬ 
tendent of public schools or principal of school building designated 
as forum; ( e ) the superintendent must assist in forming the associa¬ 
tion; (/) the superintendent or principal must issue calls for the 
meetings; ( g ) he must serve as organizing secretary until the asso¬ 
ciation elects its own officers; (h) the board of education must pub¬ 
lish notice of meeting. 

Second. This red tape will defeat the very object of the bill, be¬ 
sides imposing unnecessary duties upon the board of education, the 
superintendent of schools, and the principal of the building. 

Those are the objections that I have urged to the bill, and I call 
your attention to these figures which I have summarized here that 
the secretaries under this bill if paid at the rate provided would get 
$ 10 , 200 . 

Mr. Lloyd. Can you print that and save reading it ? 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 

Forum. 


Meetings per week. 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

1 week. 

$4 

160 

1,600 

$8 

320 

3,200 

$12 

480 

4,800 

$16 

640 

6,400 

$20 

800 

8,000 

$24 

960 

9,600 

l 

$28 
1,020 
10,200 

40 weeks. 

10 buildings. 


















COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 135 

Mr. Adriaans. There is one other thing. Amendment No. 5 to the 
Federal Constitution provides that: 

Nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation. 

I have prepared here a substitute bill which cures all of the objec¬ 
tions that I have urged. 

Mr. Lloyd. Will you submit that to the secretary? 

Mr. Mapes. I should like to have it read. 

Mr. Adriaans (reading) : 

A BILL To provide community centers and community forums in the public schools of the 

District of Columbia. 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of Americai in Congress assembled, That from and after the approval of this act 
ten or more citizens, organized or unorganized, who are taxpayers residing in the 
vicinity of any public school of the District of Columbia, may apply in writing to 
the principal of said school for use of said school buildings, or any part or parts 
thereof, for the purpose of providing a community forum for the discussion of 
public questions whereto the general public may be invited to attend and wherein 
they may participate; or as community centers, wherein said building, or any 
part or parts thereof, may be utilized for recreation and amusement or both. 

And, upon ascertaining the good faith of said application, the principal of said 
school may, with the approval of the board of education, grant such permit for 
such designated, periodic times as may be mutually agreed upon: Provided, That 
any expense incurred as janitor service shall be defrayed by said body. 

If said body is unorganized at the time of permit they may organize by elec¬ 
tion of officers; if organized they may continue the same officials in power. 

The janitor shall be responsible for the care of such buildings during such 
meetings. 

I thank you, gentlemen, very much. 

Mr. Mapes. Is it your position that, in connection with the pro¬ 
vision of this bill which requires the board of education to designate 
10 public-school buildings in which these community forums can be 
held that it is really a limitation of the present law ? 

Mr. Adriaans. Yes, sir; I take it that the bill limits the assignment 
of 10 buildings for the first year. 

Mr. Mapes. How many buildings are actually being used now for 
that purpose? 

Mr. Adriaans. I just gave you the figures. 

Mr. Mapes. You haven’t them in mind? 

Mr. Adriaans. There are now in use 48 parent-teachers associations 
of white persons. 

Mr. Mapes. I think that is in the record. 

Mr. Adriaans. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Focht. How many colored? 

Mr. Adriaans. Thirty-five like associations of colored persons. 

Mr. Focht. What action have the colored folks taken in this mat¬ 
ter ? Do you know anything about it ? 

Mr. Adriaans. I am not aware of that. 

Mr. Focht. You spoke about the white folks objecting to the 
colored people in their buildings. I wonder what they think about 
having white folks in their buildings? 

Mr. Adriaans. I think the objection would be as much on one side 
as the other. 

Mr. Focht. On these Sunday afternoon oratorical contests, have 
the colored men come in ? 


136 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Mr. Adriaans. I do not know. 

Mr. Focht. Are these free entertainments, any of them that are 
proposed or that have been held ? 

Mr. Adriaans. I do not think there has any charge been made. 
In the Grover Cleveland Forum they charge a membership fee to 
become identified with it, and I would like to call attention to the 
fact that Miss Wilson, the president, does not live within a half-mile 
radius. 

Mr. Focht. They would be glad to have her. But I was wonder¬ 
ing whether they were really democratic—no charges. 

Mr. Adriaans. My knowledge of these forums is confined to the 
Grover Cleveland Forum. I attended several of their meetings, and 
they announced that for 50 cents you can become a member of that 
institution. 

Mr. Focht. They give you a season ticket as in baseball games. 

Mr. Adriaans. For instance, they announced an entertainment by 
the Eastern High School Dramatic Association, and they charged 75 
cents for reserved seats and 50 cents for admission. 

Mr. Focht. You think this is pure democracy to charge in Govern¬ 
ment schools? 

Mr. Adriaans. I doubt it. 

Mr. Focht. I am much surprised to hear that they charge here 
and that they do not have free textbooks in all your schools. 

STATEMENT OF MR. W. C. ARNETT. 

Mr. Arnett. Honorable chairman and gentlemen, so many of the 
points that I wished to lay emphasis on have been presented to you 
that it seems to me that a very few minutes will serve me. 

The first thought that I wish to call your attention to is this one 
matter that seems to impress itself upon us all—that this Johnson- 
Hollis bill has been introduced in our District here and passed in 
to you gentlemen for consideration before the citizens of the District 
of Columbia have had an opportunity to make themselves familiar 
with this matter. Of course, living here as we do in the District, it 
is not presumed that we shall be taken into the confidence of many 
people who wish to have bills enacted into law. But this bill touches 
our people who live here, own property, and pay taxes here, and there¬ 
fore feel that they are contributing directly to the funds that help to 
operate and pay the expenses of this District. We do, as Americans, 
free-born citizens, absolutely object to any bill being passed through 
and becoming a law before we have a chance to understand it; and 
I believe you gentlemen, as true, red-blooded Americans, will stand 
by us and not allow a bill to become a law until we have our say and 
have a chance to shape some portions at least of that bill. 

Mr. Lloyd. We are giving you that chance to-day. 

Mr. Arnett. Yes; and I hope that, with those many changes that 
have been rushed here that we, as taxpayers, are not familiar with— 
that we shall have a chance to be heard in regard to the bill after it 
is finished and ready to be introduced on the floor of the House— 
another chance. 

The Chairman. You understand what changes have been made. 
No changes of any consequence have been made. The power has been 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 137 

retained in the school board, except that the commissioners control 
the matter. There are a number of amendments, but that is all there 
is in the amendments. 

Mr. Arnett. That matter does not generally change the objection¬ 
able features—not in the slightest. It is left, when enacted into law, 
as a measure of force, whether the citizens of this district really want 
their schools occupied or under under this bill; that 20 people, as 
enlightened American citizens, can compel the buildings to be opened, 
and these 20 people can select their own time for their organization 
and force that organization upon the school community. In spite of 
all these matters that are said by these gentlemen and these ladies who 
are agitating this bill, they will not, as a matter of fact and as a mat¬ 
ter of my own experience, adjust themselves. 

Laws are not made to be forced by circumstances. They are made 
to enforce and they will be by the parties who are back of this bill 
if it is made a law. 

Now, gentlemen, I think that this bill has not been presented to the 
taxpayers of this District in any honest way by the framers of this 
bill. Here is a lady who spoke before you a moment ago. These 
gentlemen who have promoted this bill went before their organiza¬ 
tion and misrepresented the whole tenor of it. She went before the 
conventions of that organization after she had got hold of the bill, 
and when they came to understand the nature of that bill they went 
as a body, one after another, against that bill, and it has been my ex¬ 
perience—I have been before citizens’ organizations, I have been 
before the board of trade, I have been before private individuals, and 
I have presented to my friends this bill by having the bill right there 
and reading it and letting them use their own judgment, and yet in 
not a single instance have they approved that bill when they have 
come to understand it. 

Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Arnett, excuse me for interrupting you at this 
point. The acoustics are perhaps different in this room from the 
ordinal room and you will be better heard if you will not speak so 
loud. 

Mr. Arnett. My earnestness prompts that. 

Gentlemen, as a man born in this country, in the State of Indiana, 
nearly 60 years ago, putting in much of my life—after my first 15 
or 16 years on the farm, the rest of my life has been spent in school 
work.' I spent 12 years in college getting all that they had to give, 
all that they had to sell, and all that they did not keep under lock 
and key. I have spent my life as a teacher, and I am deeply inter¬ 
ested in this matter, and I do not believe that the people of this Dis¬ 
trict have been treated right in this matter of the bill which you have 
before you. 

I stand absolutely for the law that is now on the statute books, 
passed one year, one month, and nine days ago. Gentlemen, we have 
not as citizens of this District tried this law out yet. We have not 
had opportunity to try it out. 

It permits our board of education to let these buildings. You 
have been told, the president of the board has submitted documents 
and told vou bv word of mouth that these buildings are being used. 
It is not satisfactory to these gentlemen who are promoting this new 
bill. We as citizens are almost to a man and almost to a woman 
opposed to this new bill, and we stand for the measure that you gen- 


138 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

tlemen of Congress gave us one year, one month, and nine days ago. 
And we want that bill to remain as it is now and no legislation on 
this school question. 

I say, gentlemen, that when this Mr. Ward and all those who are 
with him have a proposition that is a real, genuine supplement to our 
popular school system, and they will demonstrate it to us, we will 
let them have our school buildings and we will pay for the light and 
the heat, and have no rent, and we will do everything for them that 
has been done for the 153 other organizations that the president of 
the board of education has informed you about. We will grant to 
them the same privilege, and when .they demonstrate that they have 
discovered some new thing, some new and grand proposition, that 
will be a real supplement to our popular school system, we as tax¬ 
payers and citizens and permanent residents of the District of Co¬ 
lumbia will, when the board of education and the superintendent of 
schools of the District of Columbia and the principals of the schools 
in the District of Columbia come out in a newspaper statement and 
tell us that this movement of Mr. Ward is a real supplement and 
addition to our popular school system, and that we ought to have it, 
gentlemen, I will be right in the front rank and rush to the front and 
lay down my money to finance this new supplement to our new popu¬ 
lar educational system. But until then I am going to oppose this 
bill with all the power God, my father, and mother, and over 00 
years of earthly life has possessed me with, and if it must go through 
Congress and be enacted into law, gentlemen, I stand upon my con¬ 
stitutional rights and will carry it into the courts. 

I believe that the people of this Nation own the schools of this 
Nation, and I do not believe that any fraction of the Nation can 
possess those schools without the consent of all the people who own 
them, and on that ground I say that this bill must not be enacted 
into law. It will go to the Supreme Court of the United States if it 
becomes a law, and I know the ground upon which I stand. You 
can not take away from me my property for any length of time with¬ 
out my consent. If this bill that is now before you can be enacted 
into law, gentlemen, and stand in the courts of this country, there is 
not a deed of any individual, held by any individual, in the District 
for a lot, any deed held by a farmer in the United States, that has 
got any true foundation under it. Every property right in the United 
States and in the Constitution is violated by this bill. If enacted into 
law we shall contest it in the courts from the very first jump. But I 
have confidence in the justice and gentleness of this committee to 
say that this bill shall not be reported to the House. 

Mr. Lloyd. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Arnett. My occupation has been that of a teacher for most 
of my life. At the present moment I have retired. I hardly think 
I shall stay retired. I shall go back to teaching. I have got a little 
vitality left in me, and I hope, that is my last wish, that I shall die 
teaching, and protesting against every movement that seems to con¬ 
flict with the constitutional rights of a citizen of the United States. 
I stand for the right day and night, Sunday and every other day, and 
I stand for the public schools used on Sunday or any other time, but 
on no other basis except absolute, universal, democratic freedom. 

Mr. Focht. I understand that is what the Seventh Day Baptists 
stand for, to do as they please. There was a man in my town who 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 139 

used to plow on Sunday with a team of mules. Would that have any 
influence on breaking down the Sabbath ? 

Mr. Arnett. Seventh-day Adventists, you mean? 

Mr. Fociit. No; Baptists. Do you know of their influence in 
Washington? 

Mrs. Oiiipman. We have Seventh-day Adventists here. 

Mr. Focht. Their Sunday is on Monday? 

Mr. Arnett. No; on Saturday. 

Mr. Focht. They call that personal liberty, and the Bible was 
quoted that the Master said that Sunday was made for man and 
not man for Sunday. What are your ideas about the Sunday ques¬ 
tion? 

Mr. Arnett. Pardon me, I do not quite get your idea. I am 
against this bill. I do not want that bill enacted into law, and I am 
against it on the Sabbath question on this basis. 

Mr. Lloyd. Your time is up. 

Mr. Arnett. Just one point to answer your question. Here are 
the church people who have gone on erecting their churches, and 
those same people have erected the schools. They have paid for the 
schools and the churches. They want the churches, they want to 
use them for the church people. I am safe in saying, because I am 
backed by the word of the board of education that if there are other 
people in the District want the schools the board of education has no 
power to prevent it. I am against it because the schools are owned by 
the church people as much as others. They have gone to the expense 
of building churches and they do not ask the schoolhouse to be used 
on Sunday. The church people are justified. 

Mr. Focht. What do you think about the general moral effect it 
would have on the community to have these lectures and political 
speeches on Sunday? 

Mr. Arnett. I have observed Sunday meetings. They are not open 
for discussion. There are very few organizations where they have 
the open forum and debate, free discussion. I must say that I can 
not see, summing up my years of experience along all these various 
lines, that there is any general good that comes out of the popular 
discussion. I am against the forum idea, against school buildings 
being used as we are using them now. 

To make our story short, let us go on with this law enacted one 
year one month and nine days ago. Do that for us. Leave that law 
just as it is, and in the meantime, if this other system is proven to us 
to be of real benefit, we will fall in line. Then we will work testing 
this out. We will have a chance to study it systematically and see 
whether we want it or not. This has given us good service, and I 
ask you to leave us with this present law. 

Mr. Claflin. In conclusion I wish to state that the proponents 
of the Johnson forum bill have failed to show wherein this bill, if 
enacted into law, will give any advantages over the law which is in 
operation at the present time. 

That question is the one question before this committee for con¬ 
sideration, as has been stated by the chairman. 

On the other hand, many objections to the bill have been pointed 
out which would render the bill a much less desirable law than the 
present law. These objections we leave in the minds of the commit¬ 
tee to decide as to the weight they shall have. 


140 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT 0E MISS MARGARET WILSON. 

Miss Wilson. The discussion this morning developed really into 
a discussion, into an argument about the democracy, about public 
support of public education, about the public support of recreation. 
Now, I am not here to argue for those fundamental things of democ¬ 
racy. I do not flatter myself that I could convince anybody in the 
committee that is not fundamentally a democrat of these proposi¬ 
tions in the time that I have allotted. So I will not try to do it. 

The speakers for the opposition answer most of their own argu¬ 
ments. In fact, there were a good many vicious sentences. I felt 
rather dizzy sometimes. I hope you will remember some of the won¬ 
derful arguments which they gave on our side, and I will certainly 
hunt out the record of this hearing, for I know that some of those 
arguments will be very valuable to me in the future. The arguments 
which they presented against the bill in nearly every case have con¬ 
tradicted themselves. I think you will agree with me that they were 
not consistent, that none of them were consistent except the janitors, 
and I believe the janitors were mistaken, because this bill really pro¬ 
vides that the board of education shall make arrangements for extra 
janitorial service, and it does not force any janitor to work, outside 
of his regular hours, unless the board of education forces him to do 
it. That would not be within the law. 

A number of the speakers have said that they do not know wdiat 
the people of the District think of this question. They have de¬ 
clared that they do not, and yet others have declared that they do, 
know. We have been speaking of the majority of the citizenship, 
and have declared that a number of the citizens are for this bill, as 
expressed by a number of citizens. But I do not know what the 
citizens of the District of Columbia think of this question, and there 
is no way of finding out how the citizens of the District of Colum¬ 
bia think on any question without some machinery, some organiza¬ 
tion through which we can learn. Anybody who wants to learn 
the opinion of the District on any subject can find it only by the 
process of the referendum—by vote of the citizenship. Otherwise 
you could not. And so my statement that Mr. Blair can not know 
what the citizens of the District think on this question, can not 
know what they think on any question, until the machinery is or¬ 
ganized for voting on it. I submit to the committee that that is 
the only form of organization possible—that is, a district form of 
organization such as is necessary in other parts of the country for 
voting. That is the only machinery that is possible here for the 
expression of public opinion. It is just a practical form of organi¬ 
zation. 

It has been argued that the public-school buildings belong to all 
the citizenship. That is perfectly true, but for the practical pur¬ 
poses of organization the citizens, as I stated in the beginning of 
my argument, divide into groups, and the whole of each group shall 
have the right to the school building which is in its own group, just 
as all the citizens of a town had a right to go to the town meeting. 

Mr. Blair has said that Milwaukee and other cities had regula¬ 
tions against the use of the school buildings on Sunday. I speak 
only about Milwaukee, because Milwaukee is a place about which 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 141 

I have some facts. If the school board has made regulations against 
the use of school buildings on Sunday in Milwaukee, by the neigh¬ 
borhood associations, they are simply making regulations against 
the law, because the law of Wisconsin is very explicit. Would you 
like to put the law of Wisconsin into the record? 

Mr. Lloyd. Mrs. La Toilette did not? 

Miss Wilson. No. 

Mr. Lloyd. We will be glad to have it. 

(The section of the Wisconsin law referred to follows:) 

Where the citizens of any community are organized into a nonpartisan, non¬ 
sectarian, nonexclusive association for the presentation and discussion of public 
questions the school board or other body having charge of the schoolhouses or 
other public properties which are capable of being used as meeting places for 
such organizations, when not being used for their prime purpose, shall provide, 
free of charge, light, heat, and janitor service where necessary, and shall make 
such other provisions as may be necessary for the free and convenient use of 
such buildings or grounds by such organization for weekly, biweekly, or 
monthly gatherings at such times as the citizens’ organization shall request or 
designate. 

Miss Wilson. The law of Wisconsin is very explicit that where a 
neighborhood nonexclusive, nonpartisan, organization of neighbors 
asks for the use of school buildings, they shall be guaranteed the 
expense of light and janitor service in the building. I happen to 
know that neighborhood organizations have been formed, and they 
have probably not asked the use of the school buildings on Sunday. 
The board there has no right to make any such regulation. 

Regarding neighborhood associations, they have a right to form 
them in California, and they have enacted a bill in California which 
says that neighborhood organizations shall from time to time have 
the use of the school buildings. In Oakland, Cal., they are going 
against the law in denying the neighborhood the right to use the 
school buildings. 

I do not like to criticize this board because they are very kind in 
spirit. Mr. Blair has said that this board would like to have extra 
powers—would be very glad to receive extra powers in regard to the 
organization of community centers. But I declare that what the 
citizens of the District of Columbia want is not knidness but liberty 
of action, the authority to institute their own headquarters, and their 
own organizations for the purpose of self-expression and in free dis¬ 
cussion and in common action, and they do not want kindess. We do 
not want charitable institutions in the school buildings. We do 
not want private clubs where you charge dues, because that is not a 
dignified way in which to establish a public institution. You are not 
establishing a public institution in that way. We do not want the 
kindness of the board but we do want the dignity of the citizenship 
recognized in law. 

Yesterday I was asked the question whether the Sunday question 
was the only question on which we differ. It is, so far, but even if 
it were conceivable that we should know that the board of education 
would grant every request the we make, if we should know that all 
the future boards would grant all of the requests that we should 
make, that does not make any difference. We believe that the au¬ 
thority of the people in regard to the use of the school buildings 
should be established by law, so that the rights of the association of 
citizens shall be recognized, and they shall not receive anything from 


142 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

the hands of a body which is inferior to them, and that their rights 
and authority shall be recognized by law. 

And aside from that principle on which we stand, we would go 
against the experience of the country if we did not believe that there 
should be legislation guaranteeing the rights of the citizenship, be¬ 
cause the boards of education have recognized the right to use the 
school buildings in other parts of the country, and if other boards 
may do it, we want the ordinary right for ourselves, the rights of 
the citizenship in their own school buildings. 

Aside from that I do not believe, and I am sure every fair-minded 
person should agree, that it is not fair to embarrass the board of 
education by subjecting them to criticism for permitting this and 
that. The board of education in New York has been embarrassed 
many times, and this board has been embarrassed by the Sunday 
question. 

Speaking of the Sunday question, I refuse to argue very much 
about it. I think when the community forum is organized, includ¬ 
ing the White House, I think I shall give my honest opinion as to 
whether we want community forums on Sunday. I do not believe— 
I am speaking courteously—that it is. the business of this committee 
or of Congress to decide that. It has been believed by Congress to 
be the duty of the citizens to settle those questions. 

Mr. Ragsdale. There is some Sunday legislation, isn’t there? 

Mr. Lloyd. With reference to the- sale of intoxicating liquors. 

Mr. Ragsdale. We do not recognize the sale of intoxicating liquors 
in the District on Sunday. 

Miss Wilson. I leave that to the committee to decide whether they 
have the right or not. Many people believe that the community 
ought to decide when the community shall meet. 

Now, Mr. Blair said that this movement had been abandoned in 
other places. I state, and I believe I state whereof I know T , that it 
has not been abandoned in any place where the right of the neighbor¬ 
hood has been guaranteed. It has been abandoned in places where 
private organizations have used the school buildings, and there has 
been friction and trouble and monopoly by certain groups of people. 
But where the neighborhood has been guaranteed the right to use the 
school buildings it has not been abandoned that I know of. 

Another speaker, the second speaker on the side of the opposition, 
said that we do not stick to the point at all in our discussion. I 
should just simply like to say that all the speakers except the janitors 
touched on exactly the same points that we did, and insofar as that is 
concerned, they did not stick to the point. I for one can not see, in 
discussing that point, what they are trying to prove, because they 
gave arguments on both sides. 

One speaker suggested that the present bill provides for voluntary 
service on the part of the principals and secretaries. I should like to 
file a brief here. It was drawn up by the superintendent of educa¬ 
tion of Wisconsin, and shows the loss of efficiency by voluntary service 
in connection with education of any kind, and I think it has been 
axiomatic that work of that kind loses in efficiency. I do not think 
it is dignified for public servants to work for nothing. The Clerk 
of the House of Representatives is paid, and the clerk provided for by 
this bill should be paid. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 143 


(The brief follows:) 


DEFINITE REMUNERATION OF CIVIC SECRETARIAL SERVICE NECESSARY FOR GENERAL, 
SYSTEMATIC, AND CONTINUOUS SOCIAL CENTER DEVELOPMENT. 

Iii order to bring about tbe general, systematic, and continuous use of the 
public-school buildings as headquarters of orderly deliberation upon public 
questions on the part of adult citizens, as training places in self-government 
for youth between grammar-school age and adulthood, and as centers of whole¬ 
some recreation, it is necessary that the person who is to serve as secretary of 
the community organization of adults in their use of the building and director 
of its use by young people be definitely authorized and made responsible by 
being remunerated for this service. 

In the early history of the public schools as neighborhood houses for the 
instruction of children, there was trial of unpaid and volunteer service in teach¬ 
ing. But very quickly it came to be seen that for this use of these buildings to 
become general, systematic, and continuous there must be definite authorization 
and remuneration of teachers. The parallel fact that, for the civic, social, and 
recreational use of these buildings by adults and older youth to become general, 
systematic, and continuous, there must be definite authorization and remunera¬ 
tion of the person who serves as civic secretary and director of recreation in 
each district has been fairly and fully demonstrated by the experience of Wis¬ 
consin in its beginning to make full use of its equipment of community build¬ 
ings, as indeed it has been demonstrated in the other parts of the United States 
where a similar beginning has been made. 


WISCONSIN LAW 


SATISFACTORY IN ITS DEFINITE PROVISION 
PLACE FOR CIVIC ASSEMBLY. 


OF THE COMMUNITY 


Three years ago the law was passed in Wisconsin, by which school boards 
are directed to make provision for the free, gratuitous, and convenient use of 
the public-school buildings for periodical meetings of the citizens in each dis¬ 
trict where the deliberative organization of the voting body of the district is 
effected and where a request is made by such community organization for the 
use of the building. The text of the law, section 2, chapter 514 of the Laws 
of 1911, is as follows: 

“ where the citizens of any community are organized into a nonpartisan, 
nonsectarian, nonexclusive association for the presentation and discussion of 
public questions, tbe school board or other body having charge of the school- 
houses or other public properties which are capable of being used as meeting 
places for such organization, when not being used for their prime purpose, 
shall provide, free of charge, light, beat, and janitor service, where necessary, 
and shall make such other provisions as may be necessary for the free and 
convenient use of such building or grounds, by such organization for weekly, 
biweekly, or monthly gatherings at such times as the citizens’ organization 

shall request or designate.” . . . 

This mandatory section of the law is followed by a permissive section in 
which school boards are authorized to make provision without charge for other 
community uses of public-school buildings and grounds. Section 3 reads: 

“ The school board or other board having charge of the schoolhouses or other 
public properties may provide for tbe free and gratuitous use of the school- 
houses or other public properties under their charge lor such other civic, 
social, and recreational activities, as in their opinion do not inteifeie with the 

prime use of the buildings or properties.” . 

This permissive section of the statute has amounted to very little m bunging 
about the full community use of the public-school plants. The reason for this 
is not that school boards are generally opposed to “ the people s getting tlieir 
money’s worth out of their property,” or because school boards are lacking in 
appreciation of the educational value of having the public schoolhouses and 
grounds used by adults and older youth as well as by children. School boaid 
members are often keenly ajive to the necessity of social center development m 
order to secure educational as well as civic and social efficiency and the posi- 
«ve impro^ent in public morality. The reason why school boards have not 
taken advantage of this law permitting them to make provision for other uses 
of the school plants than those of citizenship, deliberation is the same reason 
that explains why the use of this public property tor organized piesentatio 


144 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT 1 OF COLUMBIA. 


and discussion of public questions has been sporadic. This law makes no 
provision for the appointment and remuneration of a person in each district 
who shall be responsible for the work of organizing and directing the com¬ 
munity uses of the public-school plant; and school boards are properly hesitant 
about having the public property under their charge opened for use without 
responsible direction. On account of this cautious attitude on the part of one 
Wisconsin school board which refused to provide for the public use of a school 
gymnasium upon the request of citizens who desired this provision, the legis¬ 
lature at the session of 1912-13 amended the law quoted above as section 2, 
chapter 514 of the Laws of 1911, which had become subsection 2, section 435d 
of the statutes to read: 

“ Where the citizens of any community are organized into a nonpartisan, 
nonsectarian, nonexclusive association for the presentation and discussion of 
public questions or for the promotion of public health by giving instruction 
in any topic relating thereto, or in physical culture and hygiene, or by the prac¬ 
ticing of physical exercises and the presentation and discussion of topics re¬ 
lating thereto, the school board or other body having charge of the school- 
houses or other public properties which are capable of being used as meeting 
places for such organization, when not being used for their prime purpose, 
shall provide, free of charge, light, heat, and janitor service where necessary, 
and shall make such other provisions as may be necessary for the free and 
convenient use of such building or grounds, by such organization for weekly, 
biweekly, or monthly gatherings at such times as the citizens’ organization shall 
request or designate. All such gatherings shall be free to the public.” 

This legislation, in its main feature of directing school boards to make 
provision for the use of public-school buildings as public forums for the pres¬ 
entation and discussion of public questions whether the citizenship of a 
district is organized as one all-inclusive deliberative body, has been amply 
justified in two important respects. It has been largely responsible for doing 
away with the old practice of turning over the public-school buildings for use 
under private, partisan, and sectarian auspices which, in times past, led to 
more or less confusion and misuse of these buildings. And wherever advantage 
has been taken of this provision for the use of the community building as head¬ 
quarters of civic deliberation this use of the building has proved not only 
feasible but altogether beneficial. 

PROVISION MERELY OF PLACE FOR CIVIC ASSEMBLY INSUFFICIENT. 

In the three years that this law has been in operation in Wisconsin there 
has not been a single case of disorder or injury to property in the use of the 
public schoolhouses as headquarters of civic deliberation where the body using 
the building has been a genuine community organization such as this law 
contemplates. But, notwithstanding the unanimous indorsement of the move¬ 
ment for citizenship organization for deliberation by national and State leaders 
of every opinion and affiliation in public affairs and the earnest indorsement of 
the plan by educators everywhere, including the Wisconsin teachers, both as 
an organization and as individuals, and notwithstanding the fact that in their 
work of promoting social-center development the State department of public 
instruction and the university extension division have had the cooperation of 
individuals and societies throughout the State, actual social center develop¬ 
ment has begun in not more than three hundred districts in Wisconsin; and, 
in the districts where a beginning has been made but where no authorization 
and definite remuneration of district secretarial service has been provided, 
the development has not only not gone on to include the organization of the 
young people for training in self-government and the provision of wholesome 
recreational opportunities but the community assembling of adult citizens for 
deliberation upon public questions has generally begun to languish after a time 
and in many cases when the limit of volunteer willingness (usually of the 
school principal) to perform public service for nothing has been reached the 
community civic assembling has been abandoned. 

A very different record is shown in those communities where civil secretarial 
service is made responsible by being definitely remunerated. 

REMUNERATION OF CIVIC SECRETARIAL SERVICE GUARANTEES GENERAL, SYSTEMATIC, 
AND CONTINUOLTS SOCIAL CENTERS DEVELOPMENT. 

In those Wisconsin communities where provision has been made of secretarial 
service for the assembling of adult citizens and of direction for the use of the 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 145 


school houses and grounds by youth for civic training and for recreation, and 
where the responsibility for tins work has been definitely placed by being re¬ 
munerated as public service—there social-center development has proved con¬ 
tinuous and increasingly beneficial. 

In Milwaukee, where the beginning of systematic social-center development 
made three years ago. through the cooperation of the university extension 
division, was followed by the administrative organization of the work of dis¬ 
trict secretaries and recreation directors on a basis of definite remuneration, 
and where Mr. Herman O. Berg was engaged to supervise the work for the 
city, the development has been steady and continuous until that city now has 
eight buildings open on an average of five nights each week, with a total at¬ 
tendance of 320,000 for the past season, and during this summer will have 19 
out-of-door centers of organized and directed recreation. 

In Superior, where the district service in social-center direction has been 
definitely recognized and remunerated as public service, the same record of 
permanence and advance has been made. For one year Superior had the 
service of Mr. Carl Beck as assistant to the superintendent of schools, Mr. W. E. 
Maddock, employed to promote and organize social-center development through¬ 
out the city. The second year the general direction of the work was taken 
over by Superintendent Maddock himself; but—and this is the essential point— 
the school board authorized the superintendent to employ at definite remunera¬ 
tion six directors or district secretaries, who should be responsible for the work 
connected with the use of the school buildings and grounds as social centers, 
“ in order,” as the board said, “ that the people might use the schools of 
evenings for cultural, civic, recreational, and social purposes.” The result is 
that with an attendance of 28,953 during the past season, there has been 
continuous progress and benefit with the “ utmost good feeling everywhere.” 

Milwaukee and Superior furnish examples of school districts—a number of 
districts in each—where the community use of the schoolhouses not only con¬ 
tinues but increases in its benefits, because the provision of the “ some special 
body whose business it is to fill the place of the nobody who is responsible for 
what is everybody’s business in the average community ” is definitely made. 

DEVELOPMENT CEASES WHEN INDIVIDUAL SERVICE ENDS. 

Prescott, Wis., gives illustration of the fact that, where the secretarial and 
directoral work of community organization is remunerated, social-center de¬ 
velopment is rapid and genuine, but when responsibility for this service is no 
longer definitely placed by being remunerated, the development is likely to 
stop in spite of the enthusiasm of the whole community for this development. 
Through the generosity of a private individual, Miss Genevieve Turner was 
employed to serve in social-center development in Prescott. She was there four 
months, and during that time Prescott gave a splendid demonstration of the 
possibilities of community advance. But unfortunately at the end of the 
period for which the money, privately supplied, engaged Miss Turner, the com¬ 
munity did not realize the necessity for perpetuating the employment of a sec¬ 
retary or director of recreation. The people of the town supposed that the fact 
that everybody favored the carrying on of the civic, social, and recreational 
activities that "they had been enjoying was enough to guarantee that they would 
continue. But the development did not continue. 

VOLUNTEER SERVICE THOROUGHLY TRIED. 

The necessity of responsible and remunerated secretarial service for sys¬ 
tematic social-center development that includes adequate provision for the 
training in self-government and the wholesome recreation of youth is absolute. 
Even in the organization of such an institution as the Y. M. C. A., which is in¬ 
tended to meet the social and recreational needs of the youth of only one sex, 
and which is usually not used by even all of the boys and young men of a 
community, it has long since been recognized that efficient administration re¬ 
quires the definite remuneration of the secretary in charge. If this is true of 
such an institution as the Y. M. C. A., it is obviously more true of an institu¬ 
tion designed to meet the social and recreational needs of both the hoys and the 
girls, the young men and the young women, and also to serve these needs of 
the older members of the community. The necessity of responsible direction 
for the use of the sclioolhouse by young people is obvious. The necessity of 


38523—16-10 



146 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


definitely remunerated secretarial service for the use of the schoolhouse as 
headquarters of regular and systematic deliberation on the part of citizens is 
no less real. 

“ The opening of the neighborhood public building for the deliberative 
assembling of the citizens is analogous to the provision of the chamber in the 
city hall for the aldermen’s assembly, or the opening of the State house for 
the members of the legislature. Obviously, for the citizens, as for the members 
of the subordinate public bodies, it is not sufficient merely to provide a place 
for meeting in order to assure efficient deliberative practice. It is necessary 
also that clerical or secretarial service be provided. It is not more expectable 
that the citizens of any district will gather for deliberation upon public ques¬ 
tions, without having a public servant engaged to take care of the bothersome 
details of program arrangement and of preliminary and reporting publicity, 
than that the aldermen or members of any other subordinate public body would 
furnish the clerical service incidental to their deliberative assembling.” 

Not only has this statement, which was embodied in the report of the dean 
of the extension division of two years ago been justified by the experience in 
social-center development throughout the State, but as a result of a plan sug¬ 
gested by the State superintendent, we may tell just about how much less 
than general, systematic, and continuous efficiency in organized civic delibera¬ 
tion may be expected so long as no provision is made for the recognition and 
remuneration of the school principal or other responsible person for work as 
civic secretary. 

At the request of the superintendent, was sent to more than 800 school prin¬ 
cipals throughout the State the following letter, accompanied by an outline 
suggested program for community meetings: 

Madison, September 19, 1913. 

To the School Principal. 

Dear Fellow Servant and Neighbor : You may remember that last season 
a list of questions was sent to each of the Wisconsin school principals asking 
for definite information upon the wider uses being made of the schoolliouses; 
and asking for the school principal’s frank opinion upon the social center 
project and suggestions for its realization. 

The response to that questionnaire shows that in the past two years there 
has been an increase of nearly 100 per cent in the use of Wisconsin school 
buildings for every phase of social center development—polling place, civic 
discussion center, lecture hall, library, and recreation house. 

Following the information upon actual progress was the answer to the 
question: “ Do you believe that the schoolhouse should be made the civic, 
social, and recreational center of the district if the school principal or teacher 
is paid for the extra service as secretary of adult activities and director of 
young people’s activities?” 

To this question the answer was unanimously, “ Yes.” 

Now, here is the situation: The very essence of the social center idea is that 
the service of the secretary to the citizens, organized for deliberation, is as 
worthy of recognition and remuneration as the service of the clerk to aldermen, 
legislators, Congressmen, or other subordinate committees of the citizens; and 
that the direction of young people’s recreation is as worthy of payment as the 
teaching of children. 

But when this matter was informally discussed during the last legislative 
session, it became evident that before State-wide legal provision can be made 
for this remuneration, it is necessary that a season’s demonstration be given 
so that the citizens may become familiar with the idea from first-hand ex¬ 
perience. 

There were a number of school principals who said that they were doing or 
ready to do what they could without extra pay, simply because they recognize 
the value of such neighborhood organization to the community and to the 
school in its regular work. But where this sort of service is rendered by others 
than school men and women in larger cities like New York and Chicago it is 
paid, and there is no reason whatever why school men and women who do this 
work in the smaller cities, towns, and rural communities should not have their 
salary adjusted to include remuneration for this important service. 

It should not take long to establish this idea. 

Meanwhile the principals of Wisconsin have the greatest opportunity given 
to any public servants in any State in America to assume leadership in this 
organization of the whole citizenship together for that all-sided discussion of 


COMMUNITY FOEUMS IN TIIE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 147 


public questions without which voting can not he intelligent, the organization 
that statesmen and educators agree must take the place of the political parti¬ 
tion of the past. 

Will you make your district one of the live spots this year? Or, rather, will 
you try? 

The final query in that questionnaire was this: “What do you suggest as 
the best method of developing the social center?” 

From the answers you would suppose that most of the school principals were 
Yankees, for most of the answers were not answers at all; but were simply 
handing the question back and asking the framer to answer it. 

All right, we will do our best; but our suggestions as to method and program 
will be useless, even though they be carefully prepared, except that you recog¬ 
nize that we, and, indeed, the whole State department of Education here at 
Madison and the whole university extension division, as they cooperate in this, 
are seeking simply to aid and assist you in this work for the community. 

Inclosed with tins letter is a brief outline of this season’s suggested program. 
As you will see, it is made up of four series, the first night in each month 
being given to a topic of local, the second to a topic of State, and the third to a 
topic of national interest, and the fourth night taking on a recreatonal or 
social character. 

If you are willing to try to have this plan, or part of it, realized in your com¬ 
munity, fill out the inclosed card and return if. We shall then send you sug¬ 
gestions how to begin, a suggested constitution, and special suggestions for 
October, and then will supply you, before the beginning of each succeeding 
month, suggestions as to speakers and material for making that month’s meet¬ 
ings interesting and successful. 

In addition to this general furnishing of material, we shall, of course, be 
glad to Jiid you in every way possible in meeting the peculiar problems of 
your situation by bringing to you the experience of other districts. 

In your service for the community, 

Edward J. Ward, Adviser. 

ONE-FOURTH PROMISE-ONE-SIXTEENTII FULFILL. 

In respect to this letter, notwithstanding the practically unanimous approval 
of the social center idea by school men and women, and notwithstanding the 
fact that the program which was suggested included the constitutional amend¬ 
ments on which Wisconsin people are to vote at the coming election, but 200 
cards were returned with the signatures of school men and women. These 
cards bore the following statement: 

“As properly the civic secretary of my district, I will undertake to bring 
about the assembling and organization (or reorganization) of the citizenship 
into a neighborhood club to use the school house as the social center. For this 
I desire all the suggestive material that the university extension division can 
furnish.” 

Two hundred responded to this call for volunteers to undertake, wthout re¬ 
muneration for it, important but difficult public service. This was about one- 
fourth of those to whom the opportunity was presented. And, considering the 
fact that these men and women at the head of the public schools in Wisconsin 
are usually burdened to the limit of their strength, largely with routine and 
detail work that should be done by subordinates, and considering the fact that 
they are, as a rule, underpaid, this is a high percentage. So long as this work 
is unremunerated not more thon one-fourth (and probably the number would 
be less after the first year) are likely to undertake it. 

Two hundred said that they would undertake the work. They meant to do 
what they promised, and they tried to do it. But only about 50, one-fourth of 
those who said they would try, achieved any real success. That is to say, 
about one-sixteenth of the whole number to whom the opportunity to perform 
public service without remuneration waS presented actually rendered the 
service. 

Why? The head of the bureau of social-center development in the extension 
division not only asked that question by letter but in visits to more than 30 
towns sought the answer. And while there were other minor explanations, the 
answer appeared to be, in practically every case, largely, if not entirely, in the 
fact that the secretarial service of the school principal was not regarded as 
actually and officially belonging to his function as a public servant. 



148 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

For the sake not only of the money but primarily for the support of the 
school principal in efficiently rendering this service upon which effective com¬ 
munity organization depends, it is necessary that this work of civic secretary¬ 
ship be definitely recognized as public service and remunerated as such. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Isn’t it a bad idea for this Mr. Ward to be working 
for the Government for only a dollar a year ? 

Miss Wilson. I do not think I need to answer that question. I 
am talking to this bill. 

There is a minor point. Mr. Jackson lives here for the present? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. And you have lived here for some time? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. He ought to know something about the District, 
and he states that all provisions in connection with the janitors can 
be arranged under this new bill by the board of education better 
than under the old bill because this bill provides an extra appropria¬ 
tion for janitorial services. 

Some one said that there was a lack of interest shown at the meet¬ 
ings of the present forum, or else they were controlled by very few 
people. I would like to state that there were 500 present at the last 
meeting, and always, I believe, more than 200 at the meetings. 

It was stated that in New York City there was a lack of order in 
the meetings of the labor forum, and in many other meetings of 
forums. Now I should like to take this opportunity of pointing out 
the distinction between that kind of an organization which is run 
by a private body and the neighborhood organization. It makes me 
think of the story of two men who went to a theater. They went in 
and after a time one said let’s either go out or else take a dollar and 
get a ticket and come back and hiss the show. The general public 
say that if they had to pay they would be guests and have to keep 
away. Aside from that, if these men had gone to see their own show 
which was on the board, which they had paid for, they would not 
have hissed. In this way this neighborhood is not getting its show 
for nothing, because it is being paid out of the public funds, the 
same dignified way as all funds of public education are paid for. 
It is their show and they are responsible for it, and in neighborhood 
organizations you have many points to be represented. It is not a 
propaganda. One of the speakers said to-day that groups proposing 
certain measures could get hold of certain buildings. That is so 
under the present law. Under the present law the board of educa¬ 
tion can give the school buildings to private organizations for the 
promotion of partisan projects. Now, in this bill the only way 
which an organization could be given over to any special purpose 
would be by the action of that body itself. It is nonexclusive, it is 
a nonpartisan organization in the way it is organized. Now, Con¬ 
gress gives itself over to special things when the majority votes 
for it. 

And also there is a lack of order sometimes in the meetings of 
legislatures and of Congress. That is a risk that we must take, but 
the risk is less when it is a neighborhood organization, meeting regu¬ 
larly for responsible action, and for orderly and for regular discus¬ 
sions, the meetings are more apt to be orderly, and if they are not 
we must take that risk that we take with the legislatures and Con¬ 
gress. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 149 

Mr. Mapes. May I just ask you one question there? 

Miss Wilson. Certainly. 

Mr. Mapes. I would like to have your idea as to this: Suppose a 
community, where the majority of the people were Baptists or Meth¬ 
odists or Presbyterians or Congregationalists, wanted to use the 
school buildings to hold certain meetings of their denomination on 
Sunday afternoons or evenings; what would you think of that ? 

Miss Wilson. What would I think of that? 

Mr. Mapes. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. I would think that they had a perfect right to do it. 

Another of the speakers spoke of these figures. His figures were 
all wrong. I did not take them down, but if you w 7 ill look in the 
bill you will find for yourselves that the figures were wrong; so 
that I will simply recommend that you look into the bill to see about 
his figures. 

Another argued that with 10 community forums all the public 
could not be accommodated, and that the public should not be 
asked to support community forums that do not accommodate all 
the citizenship. That involves an argument for the fundamental 
principle of providing for public education, and of the Government 
paying for the education of the children. We have not all children, 
and yet we all pay for the education of children. 

The first year we thought we had better not ask too much money, 
and we had better make a start by which the whole movement shouid 
go forward steadily. 

On the race question, the board of education and the commissioners 
have both assured us that they did not think there would be any 
practical difficulties in regard to the race question, and I should like 
to reiterate that I do not think the race question ought to be put into 
law; that that also is a thing for the community to work out sepa¬ 
rately. 

In regard to the damages, we would be perfectly willing to have 
a provision in the bill making the organization responsible for 
damages. We would not object to that at all. That would be per¬ 
fectly fair. 

Mr. Ragsdale. How would you collect the liability, if any arose? 
You do not make this organization of people at all liable for any¬ 
thing they do. Twenty responsible people or any number of irre¬ 
sponsible people might form the organization, under this bill, and 
you could not make those people responsible. 

Miss Wilson. You can amend the bill and make those people re¬ 
sponsible for the damages. I do not consider them irresponsible 
people. [Applause.] I do not consider that a neighborhood or¬ 
ganized to promote the welfare of the public is an irresponsible 
group of persons, and I believe the only way in which the community 
spirit can be developed is for the community to organize on non¬ 
partisan lines. That we have discussed considerably. 

I was reading an article by the president of the board of education 
of Rochester, N. Y., in which he says that most of the things we do 
and most of the organizations we are in develop very partisan views 
or else very selfish instincts, whereas we have no form of organiza¬ 
tion which will develop the community spirit; and I maintain this 
is the way to develop the community spirit and make it possible for 


150 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

the community to use its own tools. I am speaking of the other 
parts of the country now. We have the referendum to Congress 
and all that, but we have no organization which will develop the 
community sense of responsibility in using those tools. As a friend 
of mine says, we have the tools, but we have not the workshop. 

Another speaker says that the schools belong to the people, and 
they should use them; that the Senate was for the use of the Senate, 
and the people did not feel free to go in there and use it. Of course 
that is for the reason that the people have designated the Senate 
Chamber for the use of their representatives in the Senate, and that 
is for the reason that the House of Representatives has been desig¬ 
nated for the use of the House. Now, we advocate that the people 
designate buildings for their own use, and the buildings they would 
use would be the natural ones for them to use, because they are the 
places where their children go and where they can best hold them¬ 
selves responsible for their children; and also these school buildings 
ought to be the centers of education for all of us, old and young alike. 
That is what we maintain. 

You spoke of the present forum charging admittance. The reason 
for that was that the present forum wanted to live until it was sup¬ 
ported in a worthy way. There are certain expenses in connection 
with it, and we had to charge admission for the time being, but we 
avowedly said it w T as for the time being, and that we did not believe 
that a public organization ought to be paid for out of private funds. 

I would like to close, Mr. Chairman, by simply stating the issue, 
stating the question before you, which is. Do you consider the organi¬ 
zation of the citizenship of Washington for the purpose of public dis¬ 
cussion and of cooperation in the common good worthy of public 
support? Do you think the citizens of Washington have a right to 
the use of their school buildings, and that that right should be estab¬ 
lished by law ? 

A gentleman said that the burden of proof on us was this, that we 
ought to prove that the new bill had an advantage over the old. We 
believe that the advantage of the new bill over the old is that the 
dominating authority, the freedom of the citizenship, in connection 
with their use of the school buildings is established, and we believe 
that is a very great advantage. [Applause.] 

Mr. MacMurray. I would like to ask Miss Wilson a question. 

Mr. Lloyd. Miss Wilson, do you object to answering questions by 
Dr. MacMurray? 

Miss Wilson. No, indeed; I should like to. 

Mr. MacMurray. Would you state wherein the present bill has an 
advantage over the operation of the law that now exists? 

Mr. Lloyd. This is coming out of your time, Mr. MacMurray. 

Mr. MacMurray. It will save time if she will answer. 

Miss Wilson. I have stated that. 

Mr. MacMurray. You did not state it in concrete terms. You did 
not state it definitely. 

Miss Wilson. The present bill makes it discretionary with the 
board of education. The pending bill gives the right to the citizen¬ 
ship of the District of Columbia. I believe that is a great advantage. 

Mr. MacMurray. The 20 or more ? 

Miss Wilson. The 20 or more can organize. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 151 


Mr. MacMurray. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. But the organization is open to the whole citizen¬ 
ship; and I believe that under this bill the whole citizenship of the 
neighborhood can vote itself out of existence, if it wants to; it can 
say that they will not have any organization. 

Mr. MacMurray. Is that the only point ? 

Miss Wilson. That is one point. 

Mr. MacMurray. That is the only point of difference? 

Miss Wilson. Oh, there are others; minor points. 

Mr. MacMurray. Probably the first thing I will speak about is 
the present law and the bill that is now before us, and I will try and 
show the difference, and I wanted to get your viewpoint, to be per¬ 
fectly clear. 

Mr. Lloyd. I think, Doctor, she made a very clear statement of 
the difference between the two bills in her original statement. 

Miss Wilson. Yes; and that is the main point of difference, and 
all these other points hinge on or are the result of that. 

Mr. MacMurray. I wanted to be perfectly fair. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Pardon me, but before Dr. MacMurray starts I 
should like to have a letter incorporated in the hearing. I will read 
it. This is addressed to me by the Bureau of Education: 

Department of the Interior, 

Bureau of Education, 

Washington, April 13, 1913. 

Hon. J. W. Ragsdale, 

House of Representatives. 

My Dear Mr. Ragsdale: In reply to your telephone communication of a few 
minutes ago I beg to state that if Mr. Edward J. Ward, special collaborator 
in this bureau at a salary of $1 per annum, receives a salary from any other 
source I have not been informed regarding the matter. All that I know is that 
on October 7, 1915, I was directed by the Commissioner of Education to pre¬ 
pare an appointment for Mr. Ward as special collaborator in this bureau at a 
salary of $1 per annum. I was advised then that Mr. Ward’s special work 
would be as specialist in community organization. The records of the office 
show that an appointment was issued to Mr. Ward under date of October 7 
as special collaborator in this bureau at a salary of $1 per annum, and that he 
took the oath of office on January 3, 1916. 

Cordially, yours, 

L. A. Kalbach, Acting Commissioner. 

STATEMENT OF REV. JOHN MacMTJRRAY. 

Mr. MacMurray. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, 
if I do not take just as long as Miss Wilson did, it is not because there 
are not facts to be brought out and it is not because there are not 
things that should be said, but I do not want to tax the patience of 
the committee and those who are here. 

Miss Wilson has a charming personality and a most persuasive 
form of speech, and I am not quite sure that those on the other side 
are to blame if they become confused as to the logic and the force 
of the statements. It is very difficult to take issue with her, under 
the circumstances, and I would hesitate to do it if I did not believe 
we had a side that ought to be presented and ought to be presented 
as strongly as possible. I regret, however, that the charming person¬ 
ality on the other side does hamper me in presenting it as strongly as 
I should like to, because I feel embarrassment in taking issue on any 


152 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

question with a woman. But at the same time there is this thing to 
be brought to the attention of the committee. 

We have at the present time a law giving to the board of education 
almost unlimited privileges, it seems to me, to open up any school 
buildings which they think desirable for the purposes that are here 
under consideration. If I understand rightly that bill, it is a bill 
that is also sponsored by Miss Wilson and perhaps also by Mr. Ward. 
I remember reading some of the articles by Miss Wilson on com¬ 
munity forums and centers, and I believe, as a good Methodist, I 
said “Amen ” to it. I was quite glad when the present bill became 
a law, because it gave this authority to the board of education; and 
it is a matter of wonderment to me why at the present time Miss 
Wilson and Mr. Ward and others come before Congress asking for 
a bill such as this Hollis-Johnson bill, with what seem like enlarged 
powers, until the present school law has been fully tested. As has 
been stated, the present bill has not been fully tested and the board 
of education has granted every request made of it except one. To 
say that they have refused to grant requests is misleading and mis¬ 
representation. They have merely refused to grant one request, and 
that was the request to open the Grover Cleveland School on Sunday 
afternoons at 8 o’clock for community forum purposes. That is the 
only thing they have refused to do as a board of education. 

Now, no matter what may be said on either side, and no matter 
how it may be said, and no matter what attempts may be made to 
cloud the issue, at present the issue before us is this: Inasmuch as the 
present board has practically all the powers that will be given to it 
under the new bill, with the exception of that as to the 20 persons, 
etc—I need not specify that—and also the probability of appropria¬ 
tions to pay the expenses of those who shall take care of the build¬ 
ings, there is nothing in the new bill that is not in the present law 
except this. Under the Hollis-Johnson bill without the amendment 
there is the objection of transferring certain powers to the District- 
Commissioners. That is bound to be argued against. Up in Annap¬ 
olis, just within the last two or three days I think, the board of 
education and its representatives of the city of Baltimore came down 
to argue against that very thing, because an attempt along the line 
of this bill was made in the city of Baltimore with the idea of insur¬ 
ing the use of the public schools, and there the board of education 
and the representatives went down to Annapolis, the capital of 
Maryland, and asked that that law be not passed, because of the 
divided authority that there is in it. You can not have a board of 
education responsible for a certain part of the time and then transfer 
the responsibility to a board of commissioners at another time, so 
that I am very glad that that element of the bill has been thoroughly 
eliminated and therefore is not up for consideration. 

The present point about the bill is simply this—just those two 
points—how the school building shall be opened. It shall be opened 
by 20 persons. How shall the expense of conducting that com¬ 
munity forum or community center be carried on? By appropri¬ 
ations made by Congress—coming out of the taxpayers of all the 
people of this country as well as the taxpayers of the District of 
Columbia. In other words, the expenses of carrying on the com¬ 
munity forum and the community center is to be borne now by the 
taxpayers of this entire country, because Congress appropriates a 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 153 

part, and what Congress appropriates, over and above what is paid 
by the taxes from the District of Columbia, comes from the tax¬ 
payers of the whole country in a certain sense. The issue, then, 
hangs about those two things. This other issue, which must not be 
clouded, and that is this, that the present point of contention has 
really come to this—I do not know what that was in the minds of 
the proponents of this Hollis-Johnson bill when it was first put 
forward, but it is now an issue—whether the public schools of the 
District of Columbia shall be opened on Sundays for community 
forum and community center purposes. 

That is practically what the bill means. That is really what it 
means, when you come to look at it; because what is there in this 
present bill that the other law does not provide for except this: An 
attempt to get 20 people together in any section of the city and force 
the opening of the public-school buildings on Sunday afternoon, 
Sunday morning, or Sunday evening? It seems to me that that is 
the point exactly. 

Now, whether that is the point or not, that is the issue that has 
been made and brought very strongly to the front. The reason 
why Miss Wilson could say that our side furnished arguments 
which would be of advantage to her is because we all agree up to 
a certain point. I think that there are three points of disagreement, 
the first point being as to the way of opening the public schools; 
the second point being as to the expense of conducting the forum 
and the center; and the third point being the days of the week upon 
which the public schools shall be opened. It seems to me that those 
are the three points at issue. Miss Wilson, am I correct in that? 
1 do not want to misinterpret you ? 

Miss Wilson. I am afraid I was not listening all the time. Some 
of those points are absolutely at issue. The Sunday question is not 
involved in any way in the bill. 

Mr. MacMurray. No; there is nothing in the bill to state that; 
but some one has said that since the time the board of education 
refused to open the Grover Cleveland School Building that has been 
injected into the discussion. 

Miss Wilson. Yes; that has been injected into the discussion; 
but I do not think it ought to be decided by the bill. 

Mr. MacMurray. Of course not; but I think it is true. By this 
Hollis-Johnson bill, if it is carried through and becomes a law, what 
happens? This present board of education which has said that the 
Grover Cleveland School shall not be opened by its action, or says 
that it shall not be opened on Sunday afternoon, w 7 hat is to be done 
about it? How can we get them to change their decision? How 
can we do it? Get a new board? Get the old board to reverse its 
decision ? What shall be done ? 

When the board has committed itself to this action with regard to 
Sunday, what is going to be done? Are you going to take a club 
in your hand, a club that is made up of 20 persons or more, and use 
that club to force the board of education to open the schools on Sun¬ 
day afternoons, when the board of education, the responsible cus¬ 
todian for the school buildings and the use of the schools at the 
present time, refuses to do so? I may be wrong in stating that 
issue, but it seems to me that that is one of the issues involved: 
and here is where I do certainly object, from my democratic idea of 


154 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

the thing. I do not believe that any club of any kind should be used 
in a democracy; absolutely not. When you use a club you take 
away the spirit of democracy. That is just exactly it. 

If I understand this bill rightly that is just exactly what it means, 
that 20 persons can go to the board of education and in writing ask 
that a certain public-school building shall be opened at times when 
those 20 persons want it. There is no reason at all why those 20 
persons can not get that school building opened at any time except 
one day in the week, at the present time; so that all that this bill 
actually means, in intent and purpose, is that the public-school 
buildings, the use of which has been refused to some of the people 
on Sunday afternoon, shall be opened to them. That is it. Now, 
it does not say that a majority, it does not say that even a large 
proportion, of the people in any section shall be required for the 
opening of a public-school building. It simply says that 20 persons 
shall use those public-school buildings. It does not say what range 
of topics shall be discussed. It does not say anything at all of the 
time. I need not now, and I do not propose to at this present time, 
enter into the chances for abuse. I inadvertently was led into a dis¬ 
cussion of those things and I do not care to repeat it; but never¬ 
theless it is a point of weakness. I say it is something to be guarded 
against. Any 20 persons forming a club can go to the board of 
education and club them into opening any school building here in 
the District of Columbia for the discussion of any subject which 
they see fit to discuss. 

I will not say anything about the race question, because it has 
been conceded that that ought to be left outside; but who are the 
people who are most likely to use a pubic-school building on Sunday 
afternoon? That is another question. Are they the people who 
have the best interests of this community at stake, or are they not? 
What has happened in other places? In other places the Sunday 
forum, and ofttimes the week-day forum—but the Sunday forum 
especially, because it gives an especial opportunity for it—have been 
used for the discussion of subjects that are very radical in character, 
and not always a clear, intelligent, broadminded discussion of the 
most radical subjects. What we fear, and I would be very glad, I 
am quite sure, to have it contradicted, is this, that once you open 
your public-school buildings on Sunday afternoons, mornings, or 
evenings, for the discussion of an unlimited range of subjects, you 
are going to counteract all the influences that are exerted by the 
church and by the moral forces of the community. You can see 
where there is an opportunity for that. So that—let us look at it, 
then. 

In the first place, this bill has the appearance of being a club in 
the hands of 20 people who may be influenced by people who are in¬ 
terested in this movement for the opening of the public-school build¬ 
ings. In the second place, it means that the expense of conducting 
that public forum and that community center shall be borne by the 
taxpayers. Now, that is not fair. 

In the fourth place, there is not any provision for the regulation 
of the care of the buildings in such a way as to prevent damage being 
done. Absolutely not. The school children have certain rules and 
regulations and certain penalties attached to them if they abuse or 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 155 

misuse any part of the school property. I pay for textbooks as a 
taxpayer, and for other things in the school buildings, such as the 
furniture in the school buildings, and the textbooks in the school 
building are my property as much as anybody’s. I may not be 
possessed of the best sense, and I may not realize things, but it is my 
right as a citizen and taxpayer owning those things to go in there, 
and if I want to sit down in a seat that is too small for me and tear 
it to pieces, there is nobody to make me pay for replacing it. 

Mr. Lloyd. Just at this point. Suppose your child in school breaks 
out a window pane, or the lower sash of the window, who is going to 
pay for it? 

Mr. McMurrayl I think I have to pay for it. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is there any law to compel you to pay for it? 

Mr. McMurray. I think that the child would probably have 
to pay for it, would it not? And because I am the guardian of the 
child and therefore responsible for what the child does and have to 
meet the expenses of the child, I would probably have to pay for 
making good the damage. The child has to pay for it; is not that so ? 

Mr.. Ragsdale. Whatever transpired there, that child would be 
doing it under the control of the teacher, and the teacher could take 
such measures as to prevent that for the future. 

Mr. MacMurray. That is what I was trying to bring out. We 
have now rides and regulations for the care of the property and 
school buildings; but under this, with that exception, of course, we 
start with the idea that the property belongs to everybody, and 
therefore everybody has the right to take it and do what they please 
with it; so that we are pleading for the old rules at the present time. 
We can not see any reason why there should be any need for this 
Hollis-Johnson bill, and therefore we are asking the committee to 
stand by the old school law until it has had a fair chance for a trial, 
and to report adversely this Hollis-Johnson bill so far as this com¬ 
mittee is concerned, to report it adversely to the District of Co¬ 
lumbia Committee and thus to the House, on the ground that at the 
present time there seems to be no occasion or call for any change or 
modification in the present school law. [Applause.] 

STATEMENT OF MR. ALONZO T. JONES. 

Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Jones has asked to be heard for three minutes. 

Mr. Jones. I think it will take less than three minutes. I simply 
want to make a statement of facts. 

Mr. Lloyd. Give your name, your occupation, and your residence. 

Mr. Jones. Alonzo T. Jones, editor and publisher of the monthly 
journal, Religious Liberty. 

Mr. Lloyd. Religious Liberty? 

Mr. Jones. Yes. The opinion has been expressed here that public 
opinion, public spirit and view of the city of Washington would 
be against opening the forum on Sunday. The facts that I would 
present demonstrate that no personal opinion, even on personal in¬ 
formation, is valid as to action by Congress, or any other body, as 
to whether it is correct or not. The public in this Nation more than 
once has had a chance to express itself as to restrictions as to Sun¬ 
day. and in never a single instance has it put restrictions upon it. 



156 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

The particular facts I refer to are from California. In 1882, in a 
State-wide campaign, with that as the principal issue, the people 
of California wiped out all restrictions regarding Sunday. 

Since that time I have been a resident of California for several 
years and a visitor meanwhile, and I know that effort has been made 
through every legislature that has assembled to get restrictions as to 
Sunday restored to the law. Never has it succeeded. The first time 
that the referendum became available, effort was made to get that 
question referred to the people by the referendum, but not enough 
people in the whole State could be secured with their signatures to 
a petition for referendum to get it before the people as a referendum. 

Then it was hoped that when woman suffrage should come in, then 
by referendum they could get restrictions as to Sunday in the State 
of California. When the woman suffrage question was settled in 
the State of California, then enough signatures could be obtained 
by referendum, and the matter was before the State by referendum. 
It was decided in 1914, and while the bill was framed particularly 
in a campaign to win votes by every possible means—and I person¬ 
ally know because I was there and heard them say, and so I person¬ 
ally know that thousands of people voted for the bill, not because 
they wanted a referendum as to Sunday but for other provisions 
that it brought to them—yet the result was that the vote of the 
people of California was nearly two to one against it, and a majority 
of more than 177,000 against it. Oregon now coming in this sum¬ 
mer to this thing, is worthy to watch. ‘These facts make it certain 
that no personal private opinion even that is based on informa¬ 
tion is a valid statement or argument for saying that a whole com¬ 
munity is in favor of restrictions as to Sunday. 

Mr. Lloyd. What kind of a journal do you publish? 

Mr. Jones. A religious liberty journal, on the fundamental prin¬ 
ciple, the American principle, the constitutional principle, of liberty. 

Mr. Lloyd. What church is back of it ? 

Mr. Jones. None at all, thank the Lord! 

Mr. Focht. Let me ask you a question. If you ask me what sect 
I belong to, I can tell you. Are you a member of this body of 
Seventh-day Adventists out there? 

Mr. Jones. No, sir; thank the Lord; 

Mr. Focht. I would like to ask you if since woman suffrage has 
been in effect in California there has been a repeal of the law ? 

Mr. Jones. With respect to closing on Sunday? 

Mr. Focht. Yes. 

Mr. Jones. There was no law at all. There has been no law in 
California since 1882. 

Mr. Focht. Was it enacted since then? Does that apply to the 
open saloon? 

Mr. Jones. There has been no law with respect to restrictions as to 
Sunday since 1882, when the State by universal vote wiped it out, 
and in 1914 there was an effort to restore it by referendum, and it 
was again rejected, by the vote of the people, by a majority of 
177,000. 

Mr. Focht. Do you belong to any church? 

Mr. Jones. No, sir. 

Mr. Focht. Do you believe in any church? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 157 

Mr. Jones. No visible one. 

Mr. Focht. Do you believe in any church? 

Mr. Jones. I beiieve in the true one. 

Mr. Focht. You just said you thanked God you did not have any 
church behind you. 

Mr. Jones. Behind my paper or work; yes. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you belong to a religious society of any kind? 

Mr. Jones. No, sir; only the heavenly one. I belong to God. and 
belong to Jesus Christ. 

Mr. Lloyd. You belong to no earthly organizations? 

Mr. Jones. None at all; thank the Lord. 

Mr. Lloyd. I am glad you are thankful to the Lord. 

Mr. Jones. No person or persons appearing here, being asked and 
answering questions, can speak as to the sentiment of the people of 
Washington City, 350,000 or whatever their number is, in regard to 
the requirements as to Sunday; and what I come for before this 
committee- 

Mr. Ragsdale. You have come here for the purpose of combatting 
that idea? 

Mr. Jones. I have come here for the purpose of stating the facts. 
Personal opinion of any person, even on information, is not valid. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The whole effort of your argument is to prevent 
any restriction on that day, or the doing of anything to make it 
what is ordinarily described as a holy day? 

Mr. Jones. No; not the whole effort of my argument. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The main effort? 

Mr. Jones. No. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is a part of your effort? 

Mr. Jones. Yes; that is part of it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Now, believing that this forum has a tendency to 
move along the lines that you have been teaching, your idea is to 
come here and offer this statement with the idea of popularizing it? 

Mr. Jones. Whatever you may gather from it, that is your idea; 
but I state the facts. 

Mr. Ragsdale. All right. 

Mr. Lloyd. What have you to say about the other States in the 
Union that have a Sunday law? 

Mr. Jones. In what respect? 

Mr. Lloyd. Most of the States in the Union have some kind of a 
Sunday law? 

Mr. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Lloyd. What do you say about that? 

Mr. Jones. I say that it is wrong, because it is an enforcement of 
a religious day upon all of the people. 

Mr. Lloyd. What have you to say about the enforcement of liquor 
laws ? 

Mr. Jones. They have nothing to do with Sunday. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you object to answering questions? 

Mr. Jones. No, sir; not at all. 

Mr. Focht. Does your reason for desiring freedom on Sunday 
apply to the open saloon as well as to the open schoolhouse for dis¬ 
cussion ? 



158 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Jones. The question of open saloons is another thing alto¬ 
gether than Sunday observance. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Why? 

Mr. Focht. Why is it? 

Mr. Lloyd. Would you have saloons open on Sunday the same as 
on Saturday? 

Mr. Jones. I would not have any saloon at all. [Applause.] 

Mr. Lloyd. And if you would not prevent the opening of it at all, 
would you restrict the use of it on Sunday ? 

Mr. Jones. No more than any other time. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You think, then, if the saloons are open the balance 
of the week they ought to be permitted to be open on Sunday ? 

Mr. Jones. Here is another thing that goes back of that. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Well, just answer that. 

Mr. Jones. If people were not prohibited from working on Sun¬ 
day, the open saloon on Sunday would not be any more mischievous 
than on any other day; but when you prohibit work and prohibit 
play and prohibit the open forum, then the people will hunt some 
place for it, and, if they find the saloon open, that is the place they 
will go. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Have you answered that, now? 

Mr. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Are you in favor of opening the saloon on Sunday 
as it is open the balance of the week ? 

Mr. Jones. But it goes beyond that. There is no place for the 
saloon at all. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But ansAver my question. 

Mr. Jones. There is no place for the saloon at all. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I understand. But if you open the saloon the bal¬ 
ance of the week- 

Mr. Jones. That does not enter into my realm at all. 

Mr. Ragsdale. In other words, you decline to answer the question ? 

Mr. Focht. Do you carry liquor advertisements in your paper? 

Mr. Jones. No, sir; nor no other kind of advertisements. 

Mr. MacMurray. You said something about having no Sunday 
law in California? 

Mr. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. MacMurray. About the difficulty of enforcing a Sunday law 
there. 

Mr. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. MacMurray. The question occurred to me, in the States which 
have been known for their Sunday laws from the beginning—the 
New England States and some of the States in the Middle West and 
in the South—whether those laws have been, to a A-ery large extent, 
done away with. 

Mr. Jones. The Oregon Legislature- 

Mr. MacMurray. The Pacific States have been notoriously in 
favor of an open Sunday from the beginning on account of the char¬ 
acter of some of the settlements there. I have been there and I know. 
I am talking about the States where they started with the Sunday 
law. Have they done away with the Sunday law ? 

Mr. Jones. No. 

Mr. MacMurray. That is the point. 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 159 


STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN D. BRADLEY, PRESIDENT OF THE 
WASHINGTON SECULAR LEAGUE. 

Mr. Lloyd. State your name, your business, and where you reside. 

Mr. Bradley. My name is John D. Bradley; I am a resident and 
taxpayer of the District of Columbia, and have been for 13 years a 
resident. 

Mr. Lloyd. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Bradley. I am a printer by trade; and I appear here as the 
representative of a local organization, the Washington Secular 
League, of which I have the honor to be president and chairman of 
its legislative committee; and it is in pursuance of a unanimous 
resolution adopted on March 19 indorsing any legislation by Con¬ 
gress which will make the public-school buildings in the District of 
Columbia available to the people on Sundays for community forum 
purposes, and instructing its representatives to give active support 
and advocacy to such legislation, that I am here. 

Mr. Lloyd. All right. Now, what is your statement? 

Mr. Bradley. I regret exceedingly that I can not read the state¬ 
ment which I have prepared. It is very brief. 

Mr. Focht. Do you represent the Typographical Union, or any¬ 
thing pertaining to your trade as a printer, or is it with reference 
to- 

Mr. Bradley. I said this was the Washington Secular League 
which I represent. 

Mr. Focht. Well, what is that? 

Mr. Mackenzie. May I interrupt a moment? 

Mr. Bradley. I have only two minutes. 

Mr. Mackenzie. I want to give you more time. I should like 
very much indeed, Mr. Chairman, for my old friend Mr. Bradley, a 
man whom I esteem very highly, and know very well, to have time 
to read his entire paper, and if you want me to come back to-morrow 
morning, if that is practicable, I shall be very glad to finish my ad¬ 
dress to-morrow morning. 

Mr. Lloyd. We were aiming, if possible, to close to-night. 

Mr. Mackenzie. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Bradley. I do not insist upon reading the entire statement. 

Mr. Lloyd. Go ahead, then; you can have 10 minutes. 

(Mr. Bradley read parts of the statement referred to, which is 
here printed in the record in full, as follows:) 

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am president of the Wash¬ 
ington Secular League and chairman of its legislative committee. 

On February 27 last our organization adopted unanimously a resolution 
heartily approving the community open-forum proposition and the use of the 
public-school buildings on Sundays in connection therewith, and on March 19 
adopted unanimously a resolution indorsing any legislation by Congress which 
will make the public-school buildings of the District of Columbia available to 
the people on Sundays for community-forum purposes and instructing its repre¬ 
sentatives to give active support and advocacy to such legislation. 

The organization which I have the honor to represent claims the distinction 
of being Washington’s original open forum. It was founded in 1870, and for 
at least 20 years past has conducted on every Sunday afternoon during the 
months of October to April, inclusive, an open forum for the free, all-sided dis¬ 
cussion of all questions of human interest, and especially of intellectual and 
sociological concern. In the sense of being open to all members of the com¬ 
munity it has been and is a community open forum. 



160 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


It is true that the primary purpose of this organization is the affirmation and 
promotion of the principles of secularism, but one of the fundamental aims of 
secularism is “ the removal of all obstacles to the fullest freedom of thought 
and the intellectual emancipation of humanity,” and it stands primarily for free 
thought and free expression of thought. We believe with the distinguished gen¬ 
tleman who is now President of the United States that “ there is nothing better 
for an idea by way of test than exposure to the atmosphere ” and that “ discus¬ 
sion is the greatest of all reformers,” since “ it rationalizes everything it 
touches and robs principles of all false sanctity and throws them back on their 
reasonableness.” It is the aim of the secularist to throw accepted principles 
and beliefs back on their reasonableness, and he holds that the right and function 
of free discussion and criticism is the sole protection of society against error 
of custom, ignorance, prejudice, or incompetence, and that this test is the 
necessary criterion of truth and a vital, fundamental necessity of democratic 
society and of human progress. Therefore one section of the constitution of 
the Washington Secular League is as follows: 

“ Recognizing that free discussion is the best method of eradicating error, 
the Secular League offers a free platform to all, subject to the first right of 
members to the floor. No matter how wide the difference may be, it welcomes 
the free, full expression of opinion on every topic under consideration. All 
opinions, however, must be expressed in reasonable and proper language, that 
is entirely free from offensive personalities.” 

The custom of the league is to have an address on some subject of interest 
by an invited speaker, who, in many instances, is not identified with the league 
nor in agreement with its philosophy. The programs will show that many sub¬ 
jects of public, sociological, and community interest are considered. Following 
the address the meeting is thrown open for speeches, not to exceed 10 minutes 
in length, by those who desire to express themselves on the subject. While the 
constitution gives preference to those who have enrolled themselves as mem¬ 
bers, in practice it is rare for this right to be invoked, and speakers are recog¬ 
nized in the order in which they seek the floor. Very often persons who have 
never attended a league meeting before are among those who participate in 
the discussion, and never is the discussion confined to league members. Almost 
twice as much time is usually given to this feature of the meeting as to the 
main address. The principal speaker is always given opportunity to make 
rejoinder to the comments and criticisms made. 

The community open forum is, therefore, directly in line with our own prin¬ 
ciples and work, and therefore we have been much pleased to see an attempt 
made to inaugurate it in the District of Columbia. Notwithstanding we have 
evidence already that the competition will cause us to suffer some in attendance, 
we desire to see extended to every schoolhouse community in the District the 
practice of this open-forum idea for which we have so long stood alone. In 
our view, any loss of attendance will be amply compensated for by the exten¬ 
sion and victory of the principle and idea for which we stand. 

I shall not attempt to urge the great merit of the community open forum. 
That phase of the matter will be attended to much better by others. The sub¬ 
ject was well covered in Senate Report No. 391, Sixtv-third Congress, second 
session, on the measure “ regulating the use of public-school buildings and 
grounds in the District of Columbia,” and especially by the addresses em¬ 
bodied therein that had been made on the subject by the distinguished gentle¬ 
man who is now President of the United States and Prof. Edward J. Ward. 
The community open forum must commend itself to every one who believes in 
fundamental Americanism, in democracy, and in the vital, progressive prin¬ 
ciples of modern civilization. It is an effort to make democracy practical and 
universal, to enable the people to understand and intelligently to direct all 
matters of common concern. Therefore it is directly related to and expressive 
of that fundamental principle of Americanism, popular self-government. 

But as this matter presents itself in the District of Columbia at this time, 
there is another vital, fundamental principle of Americanism and of modern 
civilization directly involved, and it is especally wth regard to this phase of 
the matter that our organization is concerned in desiring the enactment of 
some such legslation as that under consideration. 

Why has this legislation been proposed? Why is it necessary? Has not 
Congress already authorized the use of the public-school buildings of the Dis¬ 
trict for such purposes as that of community forums? And in pursuance of 
this authorization has not the board of education, as stated officially by its 
president at the meeting of the board held on April 5, and as stated by him to 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 161 


this committee yesterday, permitted ir>7 organizations of almost 157 different 
varieties to use regularly public-school buildings ns places of meeting? This 
being the case, why is it that community forums can not have the use of 
school buildings without further and mandatory legislation by Congress? Is 
there something about the community forum that is so objectionable and ob¬ 
noxious that it can not be permitted the use of the school buildings while 157 
other organizations of many sorts are permitted to use them? No; there is no 
objection to the community forum itself. So it has been testified on behalf of 
the board of education and so it has been declared by those whose attitude has 
made necessary additional legislation in tins matter. 

The position of the board of education is not that of objection to the use of 
the school buildings for purposes other than that of the education of the youth, 
it is not that of objection to the use of the school buildings for community 
forum meetings, nor that it has not authority to permit their use for such 
meetings, but it is solely that the buildings shall not be used on Sunday, the 
day most appropriate and convenient for the people to meet in community 
forums and the day when such use should interfere the least with the use of 
the buildings for school purposes. “ Sunday afternoon is an excellent time for 
community meetings, as at this time we are free from our various duties and 
have the chance to devote our thoughts together to the great problems of our 
common life.” (Mrs. Susie Root Rhodes, member of board of education, as 
quoted in the Evening Star. Feb. 28, p. 9.) In addresses on this matter before 
the Woman’s Interdenominational Missionary Union on Friday last (Apr. 7) 
the vice president of the board of education and another of its members are 
reported to have said that “ the board did not object to the use of the schools 
for forum purposes on week days, but that it did object to the use of the 
schools on Sundays for any purpose.” (Washington Post, Apr. 8, p. 4.) And I 
submit that this was the position exhibited in the statement of the president of 
the board of education before this committee on yesterday. 

Something has been said about the extra service by janitors as an objection 
to the Sunday use of school buildings, and also something has been heard to the 
effect that persons gathering in the forum meetings would disarrange the books, 
etc., in desks and cause interference with the work of the schoolroom. In 
view of the extensive use of the school buildings by many organizations, as has 
been announced by the president of the board of education, entailing as it must 
much extra service on the part of janitors and giving abundant opportunity for 
the disarrangement of books, etc., it is evident that these matters do not con¬ 
stitute the reason for the objection to Sunday meetings. If the janitors can 
be permitted to give extra service to 157 organizations meeting in the school 
buildings on so-called week-day evenings and left to get their remuneration 
from such organizations, as appears from the statement here yesterday by the 
president of the board of education, and all this without any issue being raised 
over it, it is evident that the janitor matter is not the issue and question with 
respect to this matter of the Sunday use of the school buildings, however much it 
may serve as a pretext for the thing really in mind in this matter. 

All the circumstances and tin* whole history of this matter during the past 
two months, including the testimony given before this committee yesterday, 
leave no other conclusion than that the explanation of the objection to the 
Sunday use of the school buildings and of the attitude of the board of edu¬ 
cation is to be found in the sentiment reported to have been expressed by the 
vice president of the board at its meeting on February 16, when this matter 
was in the early stage of its consideration, that “ there is a pretty strong feeling 
in this community as to the observance of Sunday, and I believe with the large 
majority of Washingtonians that Sunday is not the time to do lots of things 
that are done in other cities on Sunday.” (Evening Star, Feb. 17.) At the 
same meeting three other members of the board declared their opposition to 
“the use of school buildings on Sunday,” one of them saying, as reported, “I 
think these people could better spend their time in church on Sunday and talk 
politics on Monday.” On this point the testimony of the president of the board 
of education himself before this committee on yesterday was unmistakable. 
The president admitted that personally his conscientious conviction was that 
of one raised under the influence of the “ New England Sabbath,” and he indi¬ 
cated clearly that the action of the board of education in refusing to permit the 
Sunday use of the school buildings was due to what the board conceived to 
be the sentiment of this community of 350,000 people with respect to the proper 

38523—16 


11 




162 COMMUNITY FORUMS IX THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


observance of Sunday, which was assumed to be opposed to anything like com¬ 
munity forums on Sunday. 

Now there has been opposition expressed in this city during the past two 
months to Sunday forum meetings, but the expression has not been such as 
to warrant anybody in the assumption that a majority of this community of 
350,000 people is opposed to Sunday forum meetings, or to indicate that any¬ 
thing but a minority is opposed to such meetings. I am confident that the pro¬ 
ponents of Sunday forum meetings in the public-school buildings would be 
quite willing to abide the result of a referendum on this question of the entire 
people of the district. I doubt exceedingly that the opponents of Sunday meet¬ 
ings would be willing to have the matter settled in that way. 

Now, what has been the character of the sentiment and opposition which has 
been expressed against Sunday forum meetings? It has been based almost en¬ 
tirely upon the religious and theological Motion respecting Sunday. It would be 
interesting to quote from the expressions of opposition which have reached the 
public. But its character is well indicated by the declaration in the discourse 
of one prominent clergyman that Sunday forum meetings “ would be a direct 
violation of the divine law” (Evening Star, Feb. 28, p. 9) ; by the declarations 
of another clergyman that it is “ another assault on the sacredness of the 
Lord's day,” and that “ our homes and churches are able to supply our people 
with every influence and pleasure that is good for them on the Sabbath." 
(Washington Herald, Mar. 5.) A writer in the press who quotes the Biblical 
books of Genesis and Exodus on the subject and who thinks that “ the hallowed¬ 
ness of Sunday ” is at stake in the matter, declares that “ agnostics and atheists, 
who desire to destroy the divine teachings and laws, are not in control of this 
Nation” (Washington Herald, Apr. 2, editorial page), the implication being that 
those who are in control of this Nation will or should, in the exercise of public, 
political power and authority, maintain and enforce “ the divine teachings and 
laws.” Fortunately for this Nation the men who founded it were sufficiently 
agnostic and atheistical to take the position and to make it the fundamental 
law of the Nation that political and governmental power and authority in this 
country should know nothing of “ divine teachings and laws,” and much less 
that it should assume the responsibility of maintaining and enforcing such 
teachings and laws. It would seem that it is high time in the history of this 
Nation when this original, vital, and fundamental principle of Americanism 
was receiving complete recognition and respect, and especially that that should 
be the*case here at the very seat of the Government itself. 

That the opposition to Sunday forum meetings is religious and theological 
was strikingly exhibited at the hearing before the board of education on March 
16, following which the board voted 5 to 2 against the Sunday use of school 
buildings. The opposition at this hearing was made up entirely of representa¬ 
tives of religion, and among these were two gentlemen from New York City, 
the general secretary and the counsel for the Lord’s Day Alliance of the United 
States, an organization which is concerned with the maintenance, especially by 
political power, of the religious, theological Sunday, and which, aside from that 
object, can have no interest in the management of the school buildings of the 
District of Columbia. The argument made by the opposition at this hearing 
before the board of education was that there was no objection whatever to the 
community forum itself, but solely to its being held on Sunday. It was declared 
that “ civic, economic, and social discussion is out of place on Sunday,” that 
“ the day belongs to the church and Christianity,” that Sunday community 
forum meetings would “ break down the Sabbath,” would be “ Sabbath dese¬ 
cration,” and would be an “evidence of secularism.” (See Washington Herald, 
Mar. 16, p. 1; Washington Post, Mar. 16, p. 12; Washington Times, Mar. 16, 
p. 7; Evening Star, Mar. 16, p. 14.) Before this committee yesterday the prin¬ 
cipal of the Grover Cleveland School testified that the only objection she had 
heard to the holding of the community furum in that school building on Sunday 
was that it would be “ a desecration of the Sabbath.” It is possible that other 
reasons may be advanced, but there can be no possible question that that 
reason is the reason for the opposition in the District of Columbia to community 
forum meetings on Sunday. 

It is the objection to the use of the school building, based on the religious, 
theological sentiment and dogma respecting Sunday and its observance, which 
has made necessary the seeking of additional and mandatory legislation so as 
to carry out, in the matter of community forums, a purpose already authorized 
by Congress. The issue in this matter is clearly between the religious, theo¬ 
logical, Sabbatarian notion and the community forum. The question is 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 163 


whether, in violation of the fundamental principle which divorces and excludes 
theology and religion from public, governmental affairs, the theological, ecclesi¬ 
astical, and sectarian fiction and superstition respecting Sunday is to be not 
only injected into but made the dominant and controlling consideration in the 
regulation of a public matter by public authority. We have here the naked 
question of public, governmental support and imposition of the religious dogma 
of Sunday “ holiness,” and observance because of such “ holiness.” The ques¬ 
tion is one which has been raised in the District of Columbia by religionists 
from time to time for a quarter of a century past, but.which now, in relation 
to the community forum, to which in itself there is admittedly no objection 
whatever, can not be confused with the question of .a rest day for the work¬ 
ingman or that of the conservation of public morality, as has often been done in 
the past. 

The president of the board of education well and properly declared yesterday 
that no sectarian control or use should obtain with respect to the public-school 
buildings. But why is it that the school buildings of the District of Columbia 
must be absolutely unused and closed to the people throughout the entire 24 
hours of the first day of the week, a thing which Secretary of the Interior Lane 
has publicly declared should not obtain? (Evening Star, Feb. 28, p. 9.) In view 
of the facts, can anyone deny that the situation which we have is a surrender 
of the public-school buildings of the District for 24 hours in every week to the 
sectarianism of those who hold that nothing secular should take place upon 
the first day of the week—a sectarianism which, I venture to say to the credit 
of this community of 350,000 people, is shared by a very small minority of its 
people. 

In conclusion, gentlemen, permit me to say that in the District of Columbia 
during the past two months a new, worthy, beneficial, excellent, humanistic, 
democratic, rational thing, a thing peculiarly in line with and expressive of the 
genius and principles of ideal Americanism and the spirit of modern, progres¬ 
sive civilization—the community forum—has come in conflict with an old an- 
aehronous, obsolete, unworthy, antihumanistic, undemocratic, theocratic, irra¬ 
tional thing—the Puritanical Sunday, or “ Sabbath,” as it is mistakenly called, 
the notion that the first day of the week is too good for human uses; that it 
possesses a character so different from that of other days as to make things 
altogether proper and virtuous, if done on other days highly baneful and evil if 
done on that day; that nothing that is not, from that narrow viewpoint, reli¬ 
gious, no matter how worthy and beneficial it may he, should take place on 
Sunday ; that religion and its representatives must be secured in a complete 
monopoly of that day and the people permitted to do nothing on that day but 
stay at home or go to church. 

Astounding as it may seem that such a thing could he possible here at the 
(’apital of this secular Republic in the sixteenth year of the twentieth century, 
the result of the conflict between these two things has been that, through the 
action of a public, governmental board having charge of the public educational 
facilities, the community forum has been made to step aside for the Puritanical 


Sunday or “ Sabbath.” 

In doing this not only has medievalism triumphed over modernism and super¬ 
stition over intelligence and human interest and welfare, but a most vital and 
fundamental principle of our Republic and of modern civilization has been 
flouted and overridden—the principle which excludes religion and theology 
from the realm of public, political action, and forbids the civil official to be 
guided or controlled in his official action by any such consideration. 

Gentlemen, as you have a responsibility to maintain that principle, as you are 
legislators for a secular Republic in which theology is supposed to be eliminated 
entirely from public affairs, and as this is the District of Columbia and the 
Capital of the United States in the twentieth century, and not an Israelitish, 
medieval New England, nor Virginia theocracy in the times when religion was 
identified with and supported by the State, I trust you will recommend the en¬ 
actment of such legislation as will relieve the District and the Capital of this 
enlightened and progressive country from the disgrace now resting upon it by 
reason of the exclusion of so excellent a thing as the community forum from its 
public-school buildings in deference to and in the interests of the Puritanical 
Sunday, and for no other reason whatever. I thank you. 

Resolution adopted unanimously by the Washington Secular League, Sunday, 


February 27, 1916: 


164 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


“ Whereas an attempt is being made to inaugurate in tlie District of Columbia 
the use of public school buildings for open community forums on Sundays 
for the discussion of all matters of community and public interest and con¬ 
cern ; and 

“ Whereas this very laudable attempt has been held up by the board of educa¬ 
tion of the District on the ground, apparently, that the public school build¬ 
ings should not be used for secular purposes on Sunday and that the dis¬ 
cussion of matters of public interest and welfare is inappropriate on that 
day of the week; and 

“ Whereas the open forum proposition is thoroughly in accord with the vital 
principles and the practice of our organization and with the proper evolu¬ 
tion of society, and the theological notion which seeks to distinguish Sun¬ 
day from the other days of the week is an anachronism and certainly 
should have no place in connection with the administration of public 
affairs, and especially not with respect to the control and regulation of 
the buildings used for our secular public school system : Therefore be it 

“ Resolved, That the Washington Secular League most heartily indorses the 
community open forum proposition and the use of the public school buildings on 
Sundays in connection therewith, and condemns the reactionary and medieval 
attitude of the board of education of the District of Columbia in seeking to 
interpose the anachronous theological notion of Sunday sacredness in the way 
of this highly commendable object.” 

Resolution adopted unanimously bv the Washington Secular League, Sunday, 
March It), 1910: 

“ Tn harmony with action taken by the league on February 27 in adopting 
unanimously a resolution indorsing and commending the community open 
forum proposition and the use of public school buildings in connection there¬ 
with, and opposing and condemning the opposition and obstruction to this ex¬ 
cellent innovation based on (he religious, theological, ecclesiastical dogma 
and notion respecting Sunday, the Washington Secular League hereby indorses 
any legislation by Congress which will make the school buildings of the Dis¬ 
trict of Columbia available to the people on Sundays for community forum 
purposes, and instructs its representatives to give active support and advocacy 
to such legislation.” 

Mr. Mackenzie. Mr. Chairman, may I have five minutes? 

Mr. Lloyd. Not just now. There is another gentleman here whom 
I promised to hear for a very short statement. 

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN H. TORCH. 

Mr. Lorcii. Mr. Chairman, 1 am a member of the legislative com¬ 
mittee of the Central Labor Union. I wish to state that our organi¬ 
zation has gone on record indorsing the position of the janitors’ or¬ 
ganization. They have also gone on record in being opposed to in 
any way curtailing the authority of the school board over the school- 
houses in the city here. I will simply state that matter: The central 
body has discussed it on several occasions and has taken this action 
by unanimous vote. They feel that these men should not be required 
to work more than six days a week, and they feel that any curtail¬ 
ment of the authority of the school board in any shape will work 
harm and injury to the schools and the work of the school board and 
the work of education in the city, and we desire that the matter stand 
just as it is. Personally, I feel this, that if there are any 20 or 22 
of the citizens who want to expound their views to the public or a 
forum organization, if their views are worth hearing, if their views 
are worth anything—have any value—they are worth their renting 
a hall and paying the small, nominal sum they can rent a hall for. 
If they are not worth hearing, then they are not worth taxing the 
Government and the District of Columbia to supply buildings for 
them. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 165 


Mr. Lloyd. How many does your organization represent? 

Mr. Lorcii. It averages about 30,000. 

Mr. Lloyd. We are much obliged to you. There is a doctor, a lady, 
representing the Seventh-day Adventists, and she was not able to be 
here this morning because of an operation upon a child, and we will 
hear her now. 

STATEMENT OF DR. KATHERINE FLANNIGAN. 

Dr. Flannigan. I am Dr. Katherine Flannigan; and 1 have the 
greatest respect in the world for the Sabbath, the real Sabbath which 
was given to us by God from Mount Sinai, and the Sabbath which is 
spoken of in the fourth commandment. That Sabbath existed until 
300 years after the death of our Savior Jesus Christ, and was never 
changed until it was changed by the Church of Rome, and the Sun¬ 
day which we now observe is only a pagan holiday, and for political 
reasons the Church of Rome adopted it, and all Roman Catholics 
will admit this. You can look it up in any encyclopedia and find 
that what I state is true. 

Just one more moment. I should like to say that I have been con¬ 
nected with the Grover Cleveland School, where I sent my little girl 
to make up her sewing last summer, and I never found such a spirit 
of camaraderie, I never found such a spirit of love, in any center in 
my life. I never saw such a pull together as there is among the 
mothers and sisters and daughters at that center. My little girl 
learned more sewing in five weeks than she had learned in the public 
school in five months. I never saw anyone put heart and soul into 
the work so as our dear Miss Norton and our dear Miss Fairlie, and 
they have surely demonstrated in the three years that they have 
given their time for nothing that the community forum could be a 
success. The social center work has been a success. I went up there 
’and with pleasure helped to bathe the little Italian and Spanish and 
Jewish children that did not have a bath at home. 

These dear women teach these children sewing and basketry and 
domestic science, and I think they told yon here yesterday of the 
beautiful plays that they have given; and I am sure that you will 
never rue the day that you allow these beautiful women, these noble 
Christian women, the privilege of being first to establish the com¬ 
munity forum. I thank you. [Wpplause.] 

Mr. Mackenzie. Mr. Chairman- 

The Chairman. Our purpose was to adjourn now. 

Mr. Mackenzie. If it is agreeable to the committee and to the 
chairman I should like to speak for 20 minutes and reply to some 
arguments made. 

Mr. Lloyd. We will hear you in the morning. 

Mr. Mackenzie. I should like to reply to some of the speakers, 
with the understanding that I shall have at least an hour. 

Mr. Lloyd. Oh, no. 

Mr. Mackenzie. Well, I will take 40 minutes. 

Mr. Lloyd. No; we would not agree to give you any 40 minutes. 
We will hear you in the morning. 

The committee will stand adjourned until to-morrow morning at 
10 o’clock. 

(At 4.40 o’clock p. m. the committee adjourned until to-morrow, 
Friday, April 14, 1916, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 



166 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Committee on the District of Columbia, 

House of Representatives, 

Friday , April ij, 1916. 

The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., Hon. Ben Johnson (chair¬ 
man) presiding. 

STATEMENT OF MR. ARTHUR MINNICK, REPRESENTING THE 
RHODE ISLAND AVENUE SUBURBAN CITIZENS’ ASSOCIATION. 

m 

Mr. Lloyd. What is your name? 

Mr. Minnick. My name is Arthur Minnick, and I have been re¬ 
quested by the chairman of the school committee of the Rhode Island 
Avenue Suburban Citizens’ Association to represent that association 
in the presentation of one or two phases of this question. The Rhode 
Island Avenue Suburban Citizens’ Association adopted a certain 
resolution at its last meeting, which the secretary of the association, 
1 think, has undoubtedly sent to this committee. I do not think it 
is necessary for me to read it, but if it has not already been made of 
record here, I should like to have it made of record in this hearing. 
Mr. Lloyd. It has not been made of record. 

Mr. Minnick. Then I will read the first paragraph: 

Whereas the Rhode Island Avenue Suburban Citizens’ Association believes that 
the people of the District of Columbia should be awakened to the opportunities 
presented for moral and intellectual advancement enjoyed by the people of 
other communities throughout the United States; and further believes that 
the sclioolhouse is the logical place for the exchange of ideas tending effica¬ 
ciously to the end aforesaid; and is convinced also that the sclioolhouse should 
be utilized not only for the education of youth, mentally, morally, and 
physically, but for such education of all the people of the District of 
Columbia, irrespective of age: Therefore be it 

Resolved , That this association indorses the Hollis bill (S. 5080) now pending 
in the Congress of the United States and urges its passage at the present 
session. 

There are only two questions I wish to discuss briefly, and they 
are two questions raised by the opposition to the bill. The first is as 
to the public demand, and the second is as to the necessity for this 
bill. I think that the hearing has already demonstrated the fact 
that sufficient public demand exists for a bill permitting the use of 
the school buildings. The committee itself felt that that demand 
existed in the passage of the present law which was passed last 
March, I believe. 

I have been informed that the following associations have already 
indorsed this bill: The Park View Citizens’ Association, which re¬ 
quested our association to join with them; the Mid-City Citizens’ 
Association; the Southeast Washington Citizens’ Association; and 
the Randall Citizens’ Association. I am not sure as to the title of 
that association, and it may be the Randall Highlands Citizens’ 
Association. The Parent-Teachers’ Association of the Franklin- 
Thomson School; the Chevy Chase Parent-Teachers’ Association; 
the Woman’s Relief Corps No. 6; the Woman’s Press Club; the 
Excelsior Literary Society; the Hewitt Bible Class; the People’s 
Church; the American Civic Association; and the Committee of 
Forty on Self Government. 

The suggestion was made, in effect, that this legislation and the 
legislation in general should net be enacted unless there was a ma- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 167 

jority demand for it. It seems to me that in the starting of any 
movement, whatever its merits, the start is always necessarily made 
by a minority and very frequently a minority of one. The question 
of a majority becomes important only, it seems to me, if the legisla¬ 
tion proposed involves a restriction upon the rights either of the 
majority or of any minority; but if we were to postpone legislation 
upon matters until there was a majority demand for such legislation, 
I fear we would very greatly limit the amount of legislation that is 
passed. 

The principal question, however, seems to be the necessity for the 
passage of the present measure. As I understand it from the state¬ 
ment of the head of the school board, while the present law gives the 
power to the board to permit the use of the school buildings for 
community forums and other purposes, the head of the board con¬ 
siders that his discretion is limited by what he believes to be the 
wishes or opinion of the majority of the citizens of the District with 
regard to Sunday observance. I hope I am not misstating the gen¬ 
tleman’s position. It seems to me that the use of a school building 
as a community forum is recognized as being a legitimate use of the 
building, and the opposition apparently has conceded the advantages 
to be derived from public discussion of all proper questions, so that 
the only question seems to be whether or not it should be the right of 
a given community to decide upon the time at which they should 
meet. It is assumed to be proper that they should meet in the school 
building on any day in the w T eek except Sunday. That seems to be 
conceded. The only question, then, appears to be whether it should 
be within the conscience of the particular group making the request 
as to how they should spend their Sunday, or whether that is a 
matter which should be controlled by an assumed wish of a majority. 

Now it seems to me that if the action of any particular com¬ 
munity forum was a question which vitally affected the entire body 
politic or the entire community, so that its meeting on a Sunday 
in a public-school building would break down the foundations of 
society, as some of the speakers seem to contend, of course such use 
of the building should not be permitted; but I do not think that 
even the opposition would contend that a proper meeting on Sun¬ 
day of any group of citizens was a matter which should be left 
within the discretion of a single limited board who feel that their 
discretion is restricted by religious sentiment on the part of the 
community. It seems to me that the entire question of the religious 
phase of it should be left to the conscience of the particular group 
making the request. 

I think that is all I have to say, and I thank you very much. 

Whereas the Rhode Island Avenue Suburban Citizens’ Association believes 
that the people of the District of Columbia should be awakened to the oppor¬ 
tunities presented for moral and intellectual advancement enjoyed by the 
people of other communities throughout the United States; and further 
believes that the schoolhouse is the logical place for the exchange of ideas 
tending efficaciously to the end aforesaid; and is convinced also that the 
schoolhouse should be utilized, not only for the education of youth, mentally, 
morally, and physically, but for such education of all the people of the Dis¬ 
trict of Columbia, irrespective of age; Therefore be it 

Resolved , That this association indorses the Hollis bill (S. 5080) now pend¬ 
ing in the Congress of the United States, and urges its passage at the present 
session. 


168 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Resolved further, That the president of this association is hereby authorized 
and directed to appoint a special committee of three members to cooperate 
with a similar committee of the Park View Citizens’ Association and com¬ 
mittees of other civic bodies charged with the duty of furthering the enact¬ 
ment of the proposed legislation. 

Resolved further, That the secretary is hereby instructed to transmit a copy 
hereof to the chairman of the Senate Committee on the District of Columbia, 
the chairman of the Committee on the District of Columbia of the House of 
Representatives, the Commissioners of the District of Columbia, the Board of 
Education of the District of Columbia, and the Park View Citizens’ Association. 

STATEMENT OF MR. EVAN H. TUCKER, PRESIDENT NORTHEAST 
WASHINGTON CITIZENS’ ASSOCIATION. 

Mr. Tucker. Mr. Chairman, I happen to be president of one of 
the oldest organizations and am the oldest president in point of serv¬ 
ice in the city. I have served for 22 terms and know pretty well the 
situation here. I am a native-born Washingtonian and have watched 
the situation here for years, and I think I know whafT am talking 
about. There is one question that seems to have been overlooked by 
the speakers here, and that is that we are a very well organized com¬ 
munity here already. We have a board of trade with a membership 
of something like 1.500; we have a chamber of commerce with a large 
membership; and a retail merchants’ association to look after the 
business interests; we have the Monday Evening Club, which looks 
after sociological matters; and we have a large number of citizens’ 
associations in various communities. I made a list of the citizens’ 
associations about two years ago and counted 58. The number has 
been very largely increased since that time. I have not counted 
them myself, but I was told the other day, and I understand that now 
there are TO of these local citizens’ organizations. The} 7 are all more 
or less open bodies, where the people can come and express their opin¬ 
ions. They are mostly confined to local matters, but in our associa¬ 
tion we take up any sort of a question that is brought in, and when 
any citizen attends, whether he is a member or not, he is accorded the 
privilege of stating his views. Therefore we feel we have practically 
a sort of open forum organization all through the District at present. 

Mr. Mapes. May I interrupt you ? 

Mr. T 'ucker. Certainly. 

Mr. Mapes. Do you know how many of these associations have 
discussed and taken action upon this proposed bill? 

Mr. Tucker. T Avas just coming to that, and I think I will cover it 
in a moment. About two years and a half ago when this question of 
the freer use of the public schools Avas presented, several meetings 
were held of the various citizens’ associations, and finally a meeting 
Avas held in the East Room of the White House, with Miss Wilson 
present, and practically all of our associations Avere represented, and 
that moA 7 ement had the unanimous support of our citizens’ associa¬ 
tions. I do not believe there Avas a single organization that opposed 
the general proposition of the free and full use of the public schools 
for adults. 

Mr. Mapes. You are referring noAV to the action which resulted in 
the enactment of the laAv of March 4,1915 ? 

Mr. Tucker. Yes, sir; that act had our united approval, and I 
think the general sentiment of the people -was that we Avanted to 
give that a good, fair trial. It seemed to be a good thing and it has 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 169 


resulted in much good. A number of the citizens’ associations that 
were occupying rented halls or churches are now meeting in the school 
buildings with the consent of the board of education freely given, and 
various organizations at any time can obtain the use of the school 
buildings. It is not confined to one specific organization provided 
for in the act. Almost any organization can get the use of the school 
buildings. It is a free use. We consider we have very free use of the 
school buildings now under the act of 1915. Now, when it comes to 
a question of further legislation, in the minds of a good many of 
our people it is doubtful whether there is any necessity for it. 

When the Johnson-Hollis bill was presented to our association, a 
little over a month ago, we had Mr. Driscoll, the president of the 
Cleveland School Forum, come and address us and explain the bill 
to us and to tell us what they wanted and what the idea was. He 
explained it quite fully, and as a result of his talk we referred the 
bill to our executive committee, composed of 10 men, each of these 
men being chairman of one of our standing committees. It is a 
pretty well-organized organization and we have everything working 
well. We took this bill up in the executive committee carefully, sec¬ 
tion by section, weighed it carefully, as we thought, and the unani¬ 
mous opinion of the executive committee was that there was no need 
for the legislation and that we had a freer use of the public schools 
under the existing law than we would have under the Johnson- 
Hollis bill. 

Mr. Mapes. Have you given the name of your association? 

Mr. Tucker. Yes; the Northeast Washington Citizens’ Associa¬ 
tion. 

Mr. Mapes. What is the membership? 

Mr. Tucker. We have about 200 members or more. The doors are 
wide open to everybody; anybody can come in living in northeast 
Washington who wants to. If they do not come, it is because they 
have not the civic spirit to do so. 

As a result of that action of the executive committee, the bill was 
presented to our association last Monday night and the action of the 
executive committee was unanimously approved—opposing the bill 
because we did not feel there was any necessity for the legislation 
and because we feel we have a freer use and fuller use of the public 
schools under the existing law than we would have under the John¬ 
son-Hollis bill. It is because we are in favor of the free and full use 
of the public schools that we are opposing the measure. 

Now, in order to be brief and concise and not to take up your 
time unnecessarily, I have prepared here a few reasons why we have 
come to that conclusion: 

Washington, D. C., April 11, 1916. 

The Committee on the District of Columbia, 

House of Representatives. 

Gentlemen : This association at its meeting held Monday, April 10, 1916, by 
a unanimous vote, disapproved of H. R. 12653, a hill to provide for the use of 
public-school buildings in the District of Columbia as community forums, and 
for other purposes, for the following reasons: 

1 It is monopolistic in its provisions, in that it limits the number of school 
building that can be used, thus depriving many gatherings now using school 
buildings the further use of such buildings and confining all operations to 
buildings and to organizations which may be chartered under its provisions 
and depriving anyone living outside the boundaries of a community forum the 
right to participate in its meetings or the right to the use of a school building. 


170 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


We claim that this act abolishes the present law, thereby depriving 
us of all the rights we now enjoy under that act and substituting by 
this act a limited use of the buildings. 


2. The bill practically incorporates and charters the proposed community 
forums as a part of the public-school system of the District of Columbia, to 
be officered by employees of the public schools, imposing unjust responsibilities 
upon such employees and a provision of law which it is doubtful could be 
enforced. 

3. The bill repeals the act of March 4, 1915, which grants a more liberal 
use of the school buildings than does this bill, and which fulfills a much- 
needed relief, and especially in sections of the city where small halls are not 
obtainable. 

4. The red tape and time required to obtain the use of a school is so cumber¬ 
some that no meeting could be held on short notice. 

5. It is proposed that the practical running expenses of the forum shall be 
paid out of the public funds which further precludes the operation of a free 
and open forum. 

This association believes in the free and open forum and the free use of the 
school buildings for that and other civic purposes, in so far as such use does not 
interfere or hinder the work of the public schools, and it does believe that this 
bill, if enacted into law, will operate to narrow the use of the school buildings 
and would not promote the object and purpose sought to be obtained. 

Respectfully, 


Evan H. Tucker, President. 
Roscoe .Jenkins, Secretary. 


Now, gentlemen, you asked me the question as to how many of 
these organizations have taken this bill under consideration; that is a 
rather difficult question to answer. 

Mr. Lloyd. Before Mr. Mapes came in there was quite a list given 
in by the gentleman who preceded you, showing the organizations 
who favored the bill. Have you a list of those who oppose it ? 

Mr. Tucker. I have not; but he mentioned five associations he 
thought favored it. I know of only three associations who favor it, 
and I want to tell you some reasons why they do. 

Mr. Mapes. Three out of the 70? 

Mr. Tucker. Yes, sir: 3 out of the 70 have taken action favorable 
to it. A large number have opposed it. I notice in the newspapers 
almost every night action taken by various associations opposing it, 
and I noticed one last night; I do not know how many, but a large 
number. Almost all of them that take it up oppose it right away. 
The ones that have approved it are the Park View Association, of 
which Mr. Ward is a member, and he is living in that community, 
and I understand has used great influence to have them take that 
action. The next one is the Mid City Association, of which my 
friend, Mr. Driscoll, is the president, and he is also president of the 
Grover Cleveland Forum, and so it is his influence there, I presume, 
which has caused them to take such action. 

The next one is the Rhode Island Avenue Association, the associ¬ 
ation of the gentleman who just spoke, the Rhode Island Suburban 
Citizens’ Association, which is a suburban association, and they are 
now building quite a large, nice school building there, with an as¬ 
sembly hall, and the community, I presume, think it would be a fine 
opportunity for them to start such a movement because they can 
use their new hall. As far as I know, they are the only associations 
that have officially taken action favorable to the proposition. 

Mr. Mapes. I would like to ask you just one more question. Have 
you made it a point to keep account of the associations that have 
taken action in the matter? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 171 

Mr. Tucker. Just from the newspapers; that is all I have noticed. 
The newspapers publish our actions pretty carefully, and I have 
taken note of those who have approved it and there have only been 
three, so far as I know. 

Mr. Lloyd. Dr. Jackson, are you ready to be heard now ? 

Mr. Ward. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that Mrs. Rhodes, as 
a member of the school board, be heard as early as possible as repre¬ 
senting the minority action of the school board. 

Mr. Lloyd. Very well, then, we will hear Mrs. Rhodes. 

STATEMENT OF MRS. SUSIE ROOT RHODES. 

Mrs. Rhodes. Mr. Chairman, I should like to speak as a Washing¬ 
ton woman, as an individual, and it is because of my New England 
conscience that I do speak at this time. I was very much interested 
to know that Dr. Wilbur Crafts said here that those who have the 
least attractive homes were the ones who would be most likely to be 
in a community forum. That, I think, is true, and I should like to 
repeat it: Those who have the most unattractive homes probably are 
the ones who would be in the community’s forum. 

I want to speak from the woman’s point of view. There is one 
young woman in this community whom I admire very much as rep¬ 
resenting young American womanhood, and I refer to Miss Wilson 
as an able, fearless, progressive young woman. She has spoken to 
this community in a spirit of fair play, because she knows the subject 
generally very well, and she knows intimately the community of the 
Grover Cleveland School. More than a year ago they expressed 
their love and admiration for her interest in them by naming their 
social center the Margaret Wilson Social Center. 

The school center did not at that time take the place of any ex¬ 
isting organization. It was not a charitable medium for the service 
of the poor; it was not a new kind of an evening school. She said 
it was just to be the utilization of the common school as the center 
of the community’s social and civic life in order that through this 
extended use of the school building might be developed in the midst 
of our complex life the community interest, the neighborly spirit, the 
democracy which is so essential to civic progress. The social center 
welcomed the organization of clubs of all kinds as their ultimate 
aim in the promotion of good citizenship, and here were formed ath¬ 
letic clubs, dramatic clubs, dressmaking clubs, canning and jellv- 
making clubs, glee clubs, folk dancing clubs, and with the putting in 
of the shower bath in the building the girls were taught shampooing, 
and later manicuring. Lectures and plays were given, and finally 
the grown people there were almost as numerous and as much in¬ 
terested as the children, and out of this condition sprang the Grover 
Cleveland Community Forum. 

Now, while the community forum in its entirety is not a Sunday 
question, it happens that this particular community of adults did 
ask for the building on Sunday. It is a community of hard-working 
people—Jew and Gentile, Greek and Italian, Catholic and Protest¬ 
ant—who find they have a common interest in the education and de¬ 
velopment of each other, and they believed that they would have time 
enough, be clean enough, be well dressed enough on Sunday to meet 


172 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

and follow the thought of the Chief Executive of this Nation in 
going to school to one another on that day. I do not understand 
that they wished to so spend every Sunday, and they have, I believe, 
already indicated that when they go back to their own neighborhood 
for their meetings they do not intend to meet every Sunday, and 
perhaps not every week. 

I want to say something here about the two gentlemen who have 
been mentioned as speaking for the Grover Cleveland people before 
the school board. They were urged by the Grover Cleveland people 
to do so Avhen the request of that community was being considered, 
and the board had decided that before giving a definite decision on 
its policy time should be taken to ascertain the policy in other cities. 
They were invited by at least one member of the school board, who 
looked to them as able to speak from abundant experience and 
observation of such matters. 

As a club woman, I should like to speak of one man who has been 
spoken of as going into woman’s clubs where a man did not usually 
speak. As a club woman, in the last three weeks I have been invited 
to speak before many women’s clubs on this subject. In a large 
number of the cases I have suggested that the expert on this subject 
in our community, Mr. Ward, be invited to address the club, as he 
had definite knowledge of what had been done at other places where 
this thing had been tried out. 

Now, as to the misuse of the buildings that has been suggested as 
possible, I should say, from a close observation, that the buildings that 
have been used as social centers in the District are kept in better 
shape because of such use. The larger boys are interested; in some 
cases they have built steps and in other cases they have decorated 
the walls and have done various things of that sort. The social- 
center work in the city, so far as I know it, is only developed where 
there are assembly rooms and where the buildings are suited for such 
purposes. If this bill should pass the board would not be likely, in 
my opinion, to designate kindergarten rooms for grown people in 
designating the 10 buildings for use as community forums. The bill 
provides what we have not now, namely, a systematic handling of the 
work, in that there shall .be a paid secretary and helpers, and the pay 
of janitors is insured in the appropriation asked for. In my opinion 
the passage of the bill would result in great good to the greatest num¬ 
bers in that the neighborhood public building, the schoolhouse, would 
be the gathering place of adults organized for deliberation. I have 
two and a half pages of this article that I should like to lia\ T e included 
in the record. 

(Said article follows:) 

Brief Explanation of Proposed Legislation Concerning the Use of Public 

SCHOOLHOUSES AS NEIGHBORHOOD HEADQUARTERS OF ClVIC DELIBERATION, OR 

Community Forums. 


purpose. 

This proposed legislation practically applies to our most important public 
property the central idea of the modern “ efficiency ” movement—the saving of 
the hitherto wasted by-product, the development In an orderly and consistent 
manner of hitherto wasted values in the wider use of existing property. It is, 
however, not merely a modern idea. Three thousand years ago an oriental sage 
defined the primary aim of legislation as being “ to make more beneficial to the 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 173 


people those things from which the people are accustomed to derive benefit,” 
and this proposed measure exactly fulfills this ancient ideal of the prime busi¬ 
ness of legislation. 


SCHOOLHOUSES NOW USED. 

The common schoolhouses throughout the country have been from (he begin¬ 
ning and are now buildings “ from which the people are accustomed to derive 
benefit” not only through their use for the formal education of children during 
the day, but through their use in the evenings for adult assemblies of various 
kinds. But this use has hitherto been planless and haphazard and has led to 
confusion and difficulty. 


SCHOOL TRUSTEES CRITICIZED. 

It is not uncommon to find school boards subjected to adverse criticism as be¬ 
ing narrow and lacking public spirit because of their refusal to grant the use of 
the schoolhouses to some organization or other which has applied for this use. 
But the fact is that in most cases the school trustees have been wholly justified 
in this refusal, for the school house is a public building, and the organizations 
which have asked for its use have usually been private bodies of various kinds. 
Experience has shown that it is not only wrong in theory to turn over public 
property to private, sectarian, or partisan use, but that in practice it frequently 
raises the embarrassing question: “ If you let this organization use the building, 
why not let that one; and if you give it over to that one, why not to the other, 
and—where are you going to draw the line? It is this sort of question which 
lias caused more annoyance to school trustees than perhaps anything else and 
has tended to make the wider use of these neighborhood buildings not a means 
of civic friendliness and common understanding but a source of jealousy and 
community ill will. 


THIS LEGISLATION REMOVES DIFFICULTY. 

The plan proposed in this legislation obviates the difficulty of discriminating 
between the various organization which seek to use the school house for meet¬ 
ings by providing for its use by the one organization which really has a right to 
this use, namely, the single all-inclusive organization of the whole adult tax- 
paying body of the neighborhood. The city hall is not turned over to this or 
that group of aldermen; the statehouse is not let out to this or that section of 
the legislators; the National Capitol is not given up to this or that faction of 
Congressmen. Each of these public buildings is made the headquarters for de¬ 
liberation of the one, all-inclusive body of aldermen, assemblymen, or Repre¬ 
sentatives. In the same way, this legislation proposes that the neighborhood 
public building—the schoolhouse—shall be made not the gathering place of this 
or that sectional, private, volunteer group in the community but the head¬ 
quarters of the single body of the adults organized for deliberation. 

Now, in conclusion, I just want to say that sometimes I have 
thought that our greatest need in a large city was to acquire a com¬ 
munity sense, to be able to think in terms larger than the individual, 
and so to be willing to work unselfishly for the city. | Applause.] 

Mr. W ard. If I may be permitted to suggest, the order naturally 
following Mrs. Rhodes's statement would be a statement from the 
president of the organization, Mr. Driscoll, regarding its formation. 
He was prevented from being here yesterday. 

STATEMENT OF MR. A. J. DRISCOLL, PRESIDENT OF THE GROVER 
CLEVELAND COMMUNITY FORUM. 

Mr. Lloyd. You understand that we are just closing the hearings 
this morning, and I would ask you to please make your statement as 
brief as possible. 


174 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Driscoll. I will endeavor to do that. I would first like to 
make a statement in connection with certain evidence that came before 
the committee yesterday in connection with the operation of the 
forum. I gathered from the paper this morning that a statement 
was made that there was not free discussion permitted by the chair¬ 
man of the forum. I w T ould state for your information that that is 
entirely erroneous; that as president of the organization I endeavor 
to recognize- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). I think that is not a very correct state¬ 
ment. 

Mr. Driscoll. Well, it appeared in the paper, and I judged it 
was correct. 

Mr. Johnson. What paper? 

Mr. Driscoll. Either the Star or the Herald—no; I think the 
Times. 

Mr. Johnson. Oh, well, that does not matter. 

Mr. Mapes. What is your business ? 

Mr. Driscoll. I am connected with the Railway Mail Service. 

Mr. Mapes. How long have you lived in the District ? 

Mr. Driscoll. About 17 years. 

Mr. Mapes. Are you a regular mail man ? 

Mr. Driscoll. Yes, sir; I run to New York. The use of the school 
buildings, I contend, does not conflict with the present law, because 
the law provides for a forum now. There is nothing which would 
now prevent the citizens’ associations or any other organization 
from using the buildings; they are permitted to do so just as freely 
under this bill as they are under the other bill. The use of school 
buildings by citizens’ associations is permitted now, but citizens’ 
associations as a rule do not care to meet in these buildings for the 
simple reason that a majority of the members want to smoke, and 
smoking, of course, is prohibited in school buildings. 

Mr. Mapes. Is there a law prohibiting smoking in school build¬ 
ings? 

Mr. Driscoll. I believe there is; as far as I can gather I believe 
there is a law prohibiting smoking in school buildings. 

Mr. Mapes. Have you personal knowledge of such a law? 

Mr. Driscoll. No, sir; I have not; but I have been informed by 
members connected with the Thomson School that there was a law. 

Mr. Blair. As I understand it, the board has made a regulation 
prohibiting smoking in connection with the granting of the use of 
school buildings. 

Mr. Driscoll. Of course, that is a regulation which the citizens 
will approve. 

Mr. Lloyd. That is a regulation which ought to be made, whether 
it is a law or not. 

Mr. Mapes. If this bill should pass and everybody in the com¬ 
munity should want to smoke in the buildings there would be noth¬ 
ing to prevent it, would there? 

Mr. Driscoll. Except the present regulations that prevent them 
from smoking. 

Mr. Lloyd. You make the point, though, that if you had a forum 
this objection would be removed and that individuals could smoke as 
they wanted to. 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 175 

Mr. Driscoll. No; individuals could not smoke, because the pres¬ 
ent regulations are against it. 

Mr. Lloyd. The present regulations prohibit smoking; but suppose 
this bill were enacted into law, would you then claim that the indi¬ 
viduals who were members of the forum had the right to smoke in the 
school buildings? 

Mr. Driscoll. No; I would not; and that is a point on which I 
want to make myself clear. The majority of the members of the 
citizens’ associations are smoking men and they want to smoke, as 
they do in my organization and as they do in other organizations; 
for that reason they do not care to go to places where they can not 
smoke in the evenings. 

Mr. Lloyd. There, are members of citizens’ associations of various 
kinds which now hold their meetings in school buildings. 

Mr. Driscoll. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Vinson. Is that one of your objections to this bill, that you 
could not smoke in the school buildings? 

Mr. Driscoll. No; I am not objecting to the bill at all; I am in 
favor of the bill. I was just explaining, in connection with the 
forum bill, that because smoking is prohibited in the school buildings 
some of the citizens’ associations do not meet in the buildings because 
their members like to smoke. 

Mr. Mapes. I would like to get your understanding of the bill. 
Is it your understanding that if this bill should pass and a com¬ 
munity center decided that it wanted to hold these citizens’ meetings 
in the school buildings and they wanted to smoke at those buildings— 
is it your understanding that there would be any authority lodged 
in the board of education to prevent their meeting there? 

Mr. Driscoll. I do not quite get your point. 

Mr. Mapes. Is it your understanding that in a case of that kind, 
and the board of education wanted to prevent their meeting there, 
that they would have that authority if this bill should pass? 

Mr. Driscoll. What authority have you reference to? 

Mr. Mapes. I say, if this bill should become a law and the citizens 
of any community should decide that they should like to hold these 
citizens’ meetings that you speak of in the school buildings, and that 
a majority of the members of those citizens’ associations desired to 
smoke and did smoke in the school buildings, is it your understand¬ 
ing that the board of education would have the authority to revoke 
the license of the citizens to hold their meetings there and prevent 
them from meeting there ? 

Mr. Driscoll. If they did not conform to the law; yes, sir; I 
think that would be entirely within the power and jurisdiction of 
the present board of education. 

Mr. Mapes. Not whether they complied with the law, but if they 
should smoke in the building is it your understanding that the board 
of education could prevent their meeting there ? 

Mr Driscoll. Yes, sir; absolutely. 

Mr. Mapes. I do not think that has been pointed out to us. If 
there should be meetings held in these school buildings where they 
smoked, chewed tobacco, and did things of that kind, do you think 
that the board of education ought to prevent their meeting there 
because of their doing those things? 


176 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Driscoll. Yes, sir; I certainly do, and I would be the first one 
to object to it myself. I want to say that because I am president of 
the Mid-City Association, that fact had no effect on the vote that 
they took in supporting this measure. I would certainly hate to 
think that the action of over 200 men would entirely depend upon my 
being president of the organization. I want to discount that right 
off the bat, as the saying is. In connection with forums, I want say 
that I am very much in favor of them. They give the people of 
Washington some place to which they can go and meet, and where 
they can in an unbiased and nonsectarian manner discuss these 
different questions. 

I think the committee will agree with me when I say that the 
expressions of the people of the District are awaited by Congress 
in regard to legislation affecting the District. These forums provide 
means for doing that and where expressions can be secured. We 
have some excellent organizations here, the board of trade, the 
chamber of commerce, citizens’ associations, and other organizations. 
They are all fine organizations; there is no doubt about that. But 
they are rather limited. There is a certain class of people who belong 
to the board of trade; another class who belong to the chamber of 
commerce; and another class who belong to the citizens’ associations. 
But in these forums we give the people some place where they can all 
meet. The board of trade can get the opinion of the chamber of 
commerce, the chamber of commerce can get the opinion of the 
citizens’ association, and all those opinions can be interchangeable. 
That is one good work that these forums can perform. They will 
give the people an opportunity to give Congress an expression as to 
the desires of the people of the District of Columbia. At the present 
time there is a lot of agitation here about the prohibition question, 
but I feel safe in saying that there has not been a clear expression 
of the people here on that matter because they have never met, as I 
contend, in an entirety. At different times they have meetings at 
theaters here and the people who are in favor of the measure will go 
to one theater and the people opposed will go to another theater. 
It simply means that those in favor or opposed do not meet and dis¬ 
cuss it from their own particular viewpoints. That is one very im¬ 
portant work that I believe the forums could take up. 

Mr. Mapes. In that connection there is nothing to prevent these 
forums from taking up those questions now and meeting in the school 
buildings on any day of the week except Sunday, is there? 

Mr. Driscoll. No, sir. 

Mr. Crosser. There might be somebody who would object to some 
particular day. 

Mr. Driscoll. Well, I do not know about that. 

Mr. Grosser. Suppose I were on the school board and were a Jew, 
and suppose I said I did not like to have you meet on Saturday, that 
as a Jew I believed in observing Saturday as the Sabbath, and for 
that reason I would not allow you to meet on Saturday. 

Mr. Driscoll. That point is well taken; that power is within the 
jurisdiction of the school board at the present time; the matter rests 
entirely with them. 

Mr. Mapes. As a matter of fact, they are open on all days of the 
week except Sundays, are they not ? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 177 

Mr. Driscoll. Well, they are not, except when the board of educa¬ 
tion sees fit to give permission to use them. 

Mr. Mapes. They have given permission to all organizations to 
use them on any day except Sunday, have they not ? 

Mr. Driscoll. Well, as far as 1 know; but that is rather limited. 
That is some of the work the organizations are taking up, and I 
believe that we will continue along those lines. Our object in meet¬ 
ing on Sunday, Mr. Chairman, was simply due to the fact that the 
Grover Cleveland community forum met and voted that that was 
the logical time for us to meet. We felt that Sunday afternoon, when 
it practically does not interfere with a man’s church duties, say, from 
3 to 5, or along about that hour, was a pretty good time to get the 
people of the District of Columbia together. The majorit}^ of the 
men and women who come and participate in those debates and listen 
to the discussions are working people; they do not want to come out 
in the evening after they get home, and they thought and voted that 
way, that that was the logical time for them to meet. And in connec¬ 
tion with that, as you doubtless know, application was made to the 
board for- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). We have that history, and it is not neces¬ 
sary for you to go over it again. 

Mr. Driscoll. I want to make myself clear, that I appear in con¬ 
nection with that matter and want to argue that we be given the 
use of the buildings. Of course, if you understand that it is all 
right. Now that you have mentioned that my time is limited I 
presume I need not take up the other work that this organization 
wants to do. 

Mr. Lloyd. I think that has been gone over very thoroughly in 
behalf of the Grover Cleveland Community Forum. 

Mr. Driscoll. As a resident of the District of Columbia, and one 
interested very much in its civic affairs, I want to leave my state¬ 
ment here as a matter of record that I am very much interested in 
this matter. And I speak authoritatively; I speak in behalf of this 
particular forum and in behalf of the Mid-City Association, which is 
a very large organization. 

Mr. Lloyd. We are much obliged to you. 

STATEMENT OE DR. HENRY E. JACKSON. 

Mr. Lloyd. Please be kind enough to follow the injunction to 
be as brief as possible. 

Dr. Jackson. I will do my best, sir. 

Mr. Lloyd. We want no more duplication in these hearings than 
is absolutely necessary. 

Dr. Jackson. Precisely; I understand that. 

Mr. Vinson. Why should we take any more cumulative evidence 
on anything? 

Mr. Lloyd. That is what I am trying to impress on these speakers, 
and I do not think the doctor intends to say anything that will be 

cumulative. _ . 

Dr. Jackson. I am a special lecturer, attached to the Princeton 
University work in Pekin, China, but now of Washington. 

Mr. Mapes. How long have you resided here? 

38523—16-12 



178 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Dr. Jackson. For eight months now. I do not wish to make a 
speech and I do not wish to touch on any of the details connected 
with this bill. If there is any member of "this committee who wishes 
to make an amendment to this bill, safeguarding these public build¬ 
ing from injury, we ought to have that amendment, or any other 
detail connected with the safeguarding of the buildings. That is 
not material to us; that is to say, we are not concerned with that 
matter. 

Mr. Mapes. I would like to get your view on this. If that is done 
then the bill resolves itself into the proposition of taking into con¬ 
sideration the present law and whether the buildings shall be opened 
on Sunday or not % Is not that the real issue ? 

Dr. Jackson. That and one other, namely, that the people them¬ 
selves of any community shall have the right to determine whether 
a building shall be opened at all or not instead of having the board 
of education determine it. 

Mr. Mapes. As I understand it, the people of the community are 
to determine whether they are to be opened or not, and if the bill is 
enacted into law what is there to safeguard the rights of the 
minority ? 

Dr. Jackson. Well, the principle of democracy is that the majority 
shall rule. 

Mr. Mapes. Yes; but we have constitutions and we have parlia¬ 
mentary rules and laws which are made especialty for the protection 
of the minority. 

Dr. Jackson. Very true; but they have an opportunity to protect 
themselves in that when this organization is under way, or is started, 
they have the right to appear there and make their demand or claim 
protection for anything that they are interested in. They have that 
opportunity to protect themselves. 

Mr. Mapes. But if they are outvoted there is no protection for 
them. 

Dr. Jackson. Very true; but that is true in every other assembly 
in America. If they are outvoted the majority rules. 

Mr. Mapes. Oh, no; they are protected by rules of parliamentary 
procedure. 

Dr. Jackson. Well, of course, in special meetings that is provided 
for; but in all public conventions, party conventions, and in all 
church meetings the majority always determines the result. If I may, 
I would like to come to those two points, the two things to which I 
want to call particular attention and which seem to me are specially 
at issue, and that is that very question of democracy. Now, I have 
been very much surprised in this hearing to note that there are some 
men still existing in America who frankly, and I think very sincerely, 
do not believe that the people can be trusted, and that was expressed 
several times in this hearing. It seems to me that is the fundamental 
thing at issue in this bill, and it is for the preservation of that prin¬ 
ciple that we care more than for anything else. It was for that par¬ 
ticular thing that we fought the Revolutionary War, and that battle 
is not yet over. The question is whether the people themselves shall 
have the right to determine the use of this property for which they 
pay their money, or whether a group of selected "men in the com¬ 
munity shall have the right to determine that for them; whether they 
shall receive this as a privilege now given to them by the board of 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 179 


education or whether they shall claim it as their right. Now, the 
present board of education is no doubt made up of an excellent group 
of men. 

Mr. Mapes. Are you not assuming right there that a majority of 
the people of the District want these buildings opened on Sunday? 

Dr. Jackson. 1 am making that assumption; that is to say, this 
bill merely gives an opportunity to the people to decide that for 
themselves. 

Mr. Mapes. lias not another man an equal right to assume that 
the} 7 do not want the buildings open on Sunday? 

Dr. Jackson. That is perfectly true. This bill, however, does not 
determine anything in that matter. 

Mr. Mapes. And the man who assumes that they do not* ought not 
to be charged with not believing in a democracy, ought he? 

Dr. Jackson. I would like to make the point that this bill does not 
foreclose this matter in any community in this city; that is to say, 
it merely provides an opportunity for the people of the District to 
determine whether or not they shall use the buildings or not; it 
merely gives them that opportunity; it does not reach a conclusion 
for them. 

Mr. Mapes. Of course, then, it gets down to the point whether the 
unit ought to be as small as this bill provides. 

Dr. Jackson. But, if you will let me say it, I would regard that 
as a detail also; that if this committee should want to change that 
detail in this bill, by all means change it; if you want a larger group 
than 20, make it 50, or make it 100, or whatever proportion you be¬ 
lieve is right. But the main thing we are after is to give the people 
an opportunity in any community to determine whether they shall 
use these buildings in this way or not. That is the main point, and I 
would like to call the attention of the committee to-that as the es¬ 
sential issue at stake. There are men who honestly believe that the 
people can not be trusted to determine that. The people have always 
been mistrusted from the very beginning. The constitution of the 
State of Delaware at first refused suffrage not only to laboring men 
but to merchants, on the ground that merchants did not have judg¬ 
ment enough to take part in their own government. Therefore, as I 
sa}\ from the beginning we have always mistrusted the right of the 
people to rule. And that is the great issue at stake here. And I wish 
to say in that connection that it seems to me this bill is merely the ap¬ 
plication of the principle announced in the first amendment to the 
Constitution, and I would like to submit the first amendment to the 
Constitution as a part of the record for that reason: 

Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or pro¬ 
hibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the 
press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the 
Government for a redress of grievances. 

That principle, as announced in the first amendment to the Con¬ 
stitution—which I believe is the most important advanced step ever 
taken in this direction—is merely proposed to be put into operation 
by this bill. That is what the lawyers call a bill of particulars under 
that general principle. In that connection I would like to submit 
for the record, if I may, a chapter from a little book by Walter 
Bagehot on Physics and Politics. 


180 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Lloyd. How long is the chapter? 

Dr. Jackson. It is a short chapter. 

Mr. Lloyd. I know, but how many pages ? 

Dr. Jackson. Or print as much as you can of it. It is a discus¬ 
sion of the advantage of open discussion, and the whole point of this 
bill is the educational advantage of open and free discussion. That 
chapter states, in brief, the great advantages of free discussion by 
the citizens for the welfare of the country, and it would cover the 
whole ground. If you do not wish to admit the whole chapter. I 
would like to urge the members of this committee, before they reach 
any conclusion on this bill, to read that chapter, because it covers 
the whole ground. 

The best argument in favor of this bill, it seems to me, was stated 
yesterday by a man who appeared in opposition to it, namely, that if 
the people are in such a condition and are so lacking in moral con¬ 
trol that they can not be trusted and have to have somebody regulate 
their control, that is the final evidence, as it appears to me, why this 
open forum is necessary, because a democracy can not be maintained 
without educating the people, and they can not be educated unless 
they have the freedom of open discussion. Therefore, for the welfare 
of the people, if they are in this condition and can not be trusted, 
there is only one way to improve their condition so that they can be 
trusted--• 

Mr. Mapes (interposing). Right there, we do not find it necessary 
to send our children to school on Sunday, do we, in order to get 
their education? 

Dr. Jackson. By all means, we do; we are sending them always to 
school, day school and Sunday school. 

Mr. Mapes. I mean day school. 

Dr. Jackson. Certainly not, but we are interested in the general 
education and development of the children. 

Mr. Mapes. But if we confine ourselves to this bill, the school 
buildings are open as forums now for six days in the week, are they 
not? 

Dr. Jackson. Yes. Let me just emphasize that other point, which 
is the Sabbath question. Of course, the Sabbath question is not di¬ 
rectly or properly introduced here, if we accept the basic principle 
of democracy, namely, to allow the people of any community to 
decide their own affairs; but it has been brought into this bill, and 
there is no reason why we should not talk about it very frankly. 
As to a great many of the statements made on the Sunday question, 
I wish to say that there is no difference of opinion among the people 
who are gathered here. For example, over and over again yester¬ 
day, when Dr. Crafts was talking and other people were talking 
about the desecration of the Sabbath. I found myself saying “We 
admit it.” We admit that everything he said about the value of the 
Sabbath is perfectly true, and all of us agree with it. I have been 
a minister for 20 years; I am a devoted friend of the church and an 
even more devoted friend of the Sabbath. It has been said that the 
schools ought to be used only for educational purposes, and we agree 
with Dr. Crafts about that. 

There is no question about that, and these open discussions on 
Sunday afternoons are primarily for educational purposes. There¬ 
fore I found myself saying, “ Why, there is no question about that.” 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 181 

Now, the only question that is at issue is this, and I want to call your 
attention to the fact that before you reach any conclusion concern¬ 
ing this question you should take into consideration the previous 
question involved. One of the questions at issue is the use of the 
schools, and the other question is, Are these open discussions on 
Sunday afternoons desecrations of the Sabbath or are they not dese¬ 
crations of the Sabbath ? Are these meetings promotive of the pur¬ 
poses for which the Sabbath was established, or are they not? Now, 
that is the previous question with which we have to deal. If we 
should conclude that they are held in keeping with the purposes of 
the Sabbath Day there is no question but that we should open up 
that avenue. I want to make this point clear: In urging this ques¬ 
tion upon you—and I am not here making any special plea at all- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). May 1 ask you a question in that con¬ 
nection ? 

Dr. Jackson. Certainly. 

Mr. Lloyd. You really suggested it yourself. I want to ask you, 
Why are you here? 

Dr. Jackson. Do you mean what am I doing in Washington? 

Mr. Lloyd. No; why are you appearing before this committee, or 
for whom do you appear? 

Dr. Jackson. I am appearing for the Grover Cleveland open 
forum. 

Mr. Lloyd. Are you a member of it? 

Dr. Jackson. Yes, sir; I am a member of it. T am on its board, 
and I was appointed by them to appear here. But I have other 
reasons than that, and they are even more important. 

Mr. Johnson. You have just stated that you have been a minister 
for 20 years; will you state of what denomination? 

Dr. Jackson. Presbyterian and Congregational. In that connec¬ 
tion I would like to say that the committee in charge of Princeton’s 
work in Pekin, China, has appointed me to prepare some lectures 
for the Chinese students on the subject of the Essentials of the 
Christian Eeligion, and those lectures are to be published in book 
form. I am here in Washington preparing those lectures. In that 
connection I wish to say that I have got to meet this very question 
in China that you gentlemen are meeting here. If I may pause for 
a moment here, I would like, by way of parenthesis, to call your 
attention to the fact that you are not only deciding this question for 
the District of Columbia, but you are deciding this question for a 
much larger constituency, and it is a very interesting fact that I 
will have to meet this very thing when I go to China. For example, 
these students are already asking, “ Now that you have stated these 
principles of the Christian religion, what church would you recom¬ 
mend, or what denominational institution have you in America that 
you would recommend as being the best organization or the best 
instrumentality through which to operate or give expression to those 
principles?” Now, if you gentlemen can help me to answer that 
question, I would be very glad. 

Mr. Lloyd. I can tell you how to answer that: As you are a Pres- 
bvterian you should say the Presbyterian Church is the best instru¬ 
mentality; as I am a Methodist, I would say the Methodist Chuich, 
and as Mr. Johnson is a Catholic, he would say the Catholic Church. 



182 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Mr. Vinson. What about those who do not belong to any church? 

Dr. Jackson. Exactly so. That is what they have been asking in 
China for a long time, and I want to call attention to the fact that 
this matter of denominational divisions means nothing to the Chinese 
student. 

Mr. Lloyd. That is one point I had in mind when I interrupted 
you. I believe that we ought to forget all about denominational lines 
when we go to China and Japan. 

Dr. Jackson. That is it exactly, and if I should try to answer the 
question of the Chinese students by saying the Presbyterian Church 
was the best, he would understand the Presbyterian Church to mean 
the church ruled by old men. The Baptist Church he understands 
to be the church of the big wash, and when you commence to call a 
church the Church of the Big Wash, you ruin its influence at the 
start. There is only one answer to that question. In China we must 
reconstruct this whole educational system and religious system, but 
the students are not going to the denominational churches at all, and 
we have got to have an organization in which nil of those people can 
feel that they can work—that is, men who do not belong to any 
church and men who are good Confucionists as well. That is true, 
because there is no use of our going to China and giving them some¬ 
thing that they will have to undo and that will make them unlearn 
their Bible. 

I have been thinking over this question, and 1 am going to take 
this open forum to Pekin, because, after all, it is only a question of 
the application of the great scheme of Christian ideals to the ordi¬ 
nary concerns of human life. Now, I have traveled over four or 
five routes in coming to this question. I would like to call atten¬ 
tion to this fact, that if we can forget all of the little prejudices 
and details, so far as this relates to the District of Columbia, you 
gentlemen, I believe, have a great opportunity to render a service 
to the country at large, as well as to the people of this District. 
Now, in the first place, I traveled for miles over the agricultural 
country studying the country-life problem. For three years I 
worked with Secretary Houston in that investigation, and on this 
very question of the organization of country life. I said to myself. 
“ there is only one avenue, there is only one agency that you can 
use in country life to coordinate the activities of a community and 
that will be a clearing house for ideas—there is only one.” I could 
not go and talk, as the pastor of a church, in the open country with¬ 
out building a wall around myself. The public school is the only 
avenue open to them by which they can reach the solution of that 
question. I approached the question from three or four other lines. 

For instance, I looked at the economic question involved. I do not 
know what the taxation in the District of Columbia is, but, in my own 
town in New Jersey, the amount of taxes raised for public-school 
purposes represents 50 per cent of the taxes raised for all purposes, 
and, in a town in Pennsylvania, with which I am familiar, the same 
proportion prevails. That is to say. the amount of money spent for 
public-school purposes is equal to that expended for all other com¬ 
munity purposes in those towns, and, I think, that that proportion 
will hold pretty generally throughout the country. Now, the people 
do not object to paying that money in taxes for public institutions 
if they get the worth of their money, but to have these buildings 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 183 


used only one-half of the time or a part of the time, although the 
public-school buildings are used to a much larger extent than the 
churches—the church buildings being used only one day in seven, is 
very much worse off than the public-school building, which is used 
five days in seven- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). It is hardly fair to the churches to say 
that they are used only one day in the week. 

Dr. Jackson. That is not quite fair, perhaps- 

Mr. Lloyd (interposing). They are used nearly every evening in 
the week. I think that nearly every church in Washington, of any 
consequence, has some kind of services nearly every evening. The 
Catholic Church has some services every day, and the Protestant 
churches nearly every day. 

Dr. Jackson. The churches that I know best have been used mostly 
one day in the week and. perhaps, one evening in the week. But, 
anyway, whatever the proportion is, to utilize the public-school 
buildings for just half the time, when they ought to be used for all 
kinds of purposes in order that we may get the worth of our money 
out of them. I think is a waste of money and it is morally wrong to 
waste money. 

Mr. Mates. May I interrupt you there? 

Dr. Jackson. .Certainly. 

Mr. Mapes. I would like to get your opinion upon this question: 
We had a man before the committee yesterday who said that he 
thought there ought not to be any Sunday laws. Is that your judg¬ 
ment also? 

Dr. Jackson. That there ought not to be any Sunday laws? 

Mr. Lloyd. Any laws requiring Sunday observance. 

Mr. Mapes. Or any Sunday regulations. Ought there to be any 
laws for Sunday, any more than for other days? 

Dr. Jackson. By all means; I think there ought to be every kind 
of law that is necessary to protect the Sabbath day and preserve it 
for the purposes it was designed for. 

Mr. Mapes. Do you believe that, whether or not a community 
within a radius of half a mile wants any such laws? 

Dr. Jackson. Now, of course, the laws that you refer to are 
nation wide. 

Mr. Mapes. I am referring to community laws. 

Dr. Jackson. Of course, the law-making power resides with the 
people. You gentlemen make laws for the District of Columbia, but 
if the District of Columbia was normally situated, the people, of 
course, would have authority to determine what laws should be 
made to regulate themselves. 

Mr. Mapes. That question was raised yesterday in reference to 
saloons, and the man very properly answered that there ought not 
to be any saloons. That was a very proper answer, probably. Then 
he was asked this question, that as long as the saloons existed, should 
they be opened only six days in the week. In your judgment, should 
they be opened on Sunday? 

Dr. Jackson. Certainly not; because the moral sentiment of the 
people in Washington does not sanction the proposition that they 
ought to be opened on Sunday. 

Mr. Lloyd. Suppose the moral sentiment of the community should 
be that we ought not to have these forums open on Sunday after¬ 
noon ; would not the same principle apply ? 




184 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Dr. Jackson. That they ought not to be open? 

Mr. Lloyd. Yes. 

Dr. Jackson. Certainly; by all means. 

Mr. Lloyd. Don’t you think from the arguments that have been 
made that these gentlemen are sincere in saying that from the moral 
standpoint it is not best to have these forums open on Sunday ? 

Dr. Jackson. I think that they are entirely sincere in their state¬ 
ments, but this is a question of judgment. This is a thing that we are 
to decide ultimately, and I propose to give as much time as I can in 
the future to persuading all men who believe in the necessity of 
ideals that these open forums are not desecrations of the Sabbath, 
but that they are strictly in accord with the true teachings of the 
Bible and strictly in accordance with the teachings and practices of 
Jesus. The Jewish republic had its open forum on every Sunday; 
the synagogue was an open forumjbecause the Hebrew nation was 
a republic and believed in open discussion. The word “ synagogue ” 
means leading all the people together. 'After all, the people of this 
particular District discuss in the open forums exactly the kind of 
questions that were discussed by Jesus in Nazareth- 

Mr. Mapes (interposing). It is a question of individual judgment 
or individual conscience, or whatever you care to call it, as to whether 
or not this is a proper use of the Sabbath; and there, are some people 
who think that saloons should be open for certain hours on Sunday. 

Dr. Jackson. No, sir; it is a question of education; it is a ques¬ 
tion of knowledge. If you take the platform of Christianity as 
stable, if you take Christianity at its source, then it is my judgment 
that it would be necessary to have an open forum, because it was in 
an open forum in Nazareth on Sunday that Jesus got up to make 
the speech that ended in a riot of the most violent character. Now, 
He expressed in that great address exactly the kind of principles 
and exactly the kind of ideas and on exactly the kind of subjects that 
are treated in the open forum here in Washington. Reference was 
made yesterday to the danger of riot in open discussion. Of course 
there is danger of excitement, and wherever there is life there is ex¬ 
citement. There is only one place where we can be perfectly safe 
from riots, and that is in a graveyard. There is not a man sitting 
here who would not say that he is very glad that that Carpenter of 
Nazareth arose in that open forum and made that address, which 
is one of the most remarkable documents of all times, and promotive 
of the welfare of this Nation and of every other nation. We are 
proud of it; and we agree with it. 

Now, I have no doubt that we are aiming at the same thing. I ap¬ 
preciate the stand that these other gentlemen take here; I respect 
them, and I know that they are perfectly sincere; but I am also a 
friend of the church and am a friend of Sunday particularly. I think 
that the Sabbath is one of the greatest institutions we have and it 
ought to be preserved. I want to do all I can to assist the church. 
The church, as Dr. Crafts said, is having a hard time. There is no 
question about that. Sixty per cent of the people of the United 
States, including men, women, and children, are outside of any 
church. That proportion is without any church connections what¬ 
ever, and a great many more are but nominal members of the church 
and take no active part in it. I appreviate the fact that that is a se- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 185 


rious condition. I want to assist them, and I say that I think they are 
doing the greatest damage to themselves by opposing the open-forum 
movement. It will drive people further away from them by taking 
that attitude. We can not get the people unless we go to them, and if 
the church were wise it would take the position of assisting the people 
in these open forums. The open forum should be one of the greatest 
agencies of the churches in getting their spiritual and moral ideals 
into operation, and if they w T ould combine and stand behind this 
open-forum movement, they would help themselves immensely. Now, 
it has been suggested that these Sunday afternoon discussions are 
devoted largely to the subject of economics, and that that is not a 
religious subject. I want to call attention to this fact in that con¬ 
nection, and that is if we are going to take the Bible as our standard, 
you will find that the one subject discussed more than any other in 
the Bible is economics. The Old Testament is almost wholly de¬ 
voted to the question of economics, and the one question that Jesus 
talked about more than anything else was the question of money. 
You need not take my word for that; you can look it up in the four 
Gospels, and you will find that I am correct about it. I defy any 
man to talk on the subject of economics, without becoming involved 
in a discussion of moral and religious ideals. 

Mr. Vinson. Did you say that the four Gospels speak of money 
more than any other one subject? 

Dr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Vinson. And they still follow that rule in the pulpit to-day, 
do they not? 

Dr. Jackson. Yes; the only difference*is they discuss the question 
of getting in money instead of paying it out. We have had a very 
remarkable illustration of this fact in something that really hap¬ 
pened in our open forum here in Washington. Some time ago Con¬ 
gressman Frear came there and discussed the subject of the “pork 
barrel.” Now, you would say at once that that was a most unrelig¬ 
ious and unmoral kind of question, and a most materialistic question 
to talk about on Sunday. Mr. Frear delivered his address and 
reached this conclusion: “He said that this whole question narrows 
itself down simply to a question of fundamental honesty on the part 
of a particular district in any part of America in what it asks for at 
the hands of Congress, and that fundamental honesty is the funda¬ 
mental question at issue. . _. , ., 

Mr. Mapes. Suppose the people living within the radius ot a mile 
of some nonnavigable river said that they ought to have an appro¬ 
priation from the Government to dredge and canalize the stream; 
do you think the Government ought to grant that as a right ? 

Dr. Jackson. The Congress of the United States is not an organi¬ 
zation to be regulated by a very small fraction of the people of the 
country, but Congressmen have got to think nationally. There¬ 
fore, in deciding that question, they have got to take into considera¬ 
tion all the rest of the country. 

Mr Mapes. There is one other question I want to ask you: Are you 
a member of the Grover Cleveland Community Forum? 

Dr. Jackson. Yes, sir. . , , ,, , 7 , 

Mr. Mapes. Do you live within the radius ot that school that would 
allow you to become a member if this bill were enacted into law ? 


186 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Dr. Jackson. I think not. 

Mr. Johnson. If this bill should become a law, however, there 
would be a forum within reach of where you live? 

Dr. Jackson. Yes, sir. This movement is just starting in Wash¬ 
ington, and as soon as we got regulated, I would go to the one legiti¬ 
mately intended for me. 

Mr. Mapes. When you get down to the point, is not the question 
involved the same one involved in the pork-barrel proposition; that is, 
is it not a question of what you will use as the unit—whether you 
are going to say that the people residing within a half a mile of a 
point shall control, or whether you will say that the District of 
Columbia shall be taken as the unit; and as the people of the District 
of Columbia have no way to express themselves, should not Con¬ 
gress take into consideration the whole District, and determine what, 
in its judgment, is best for the District as a whole? 

Dr. Jackson. Certainly; precisely so. All of these are questions 
of detail which can be regulated in any way that appeals to your 
judgment. The important thing, however, is to establish the right 
of the people in any community to the use of the property which 
they have paid for—to establish their right to use it for the education 
of the people. 1 want to say that I have considered this question 
from a dozen different standpoints; from the standpoint of Ameri¬ 
canizing our immigrants, from the standpoint of safeguarding the 
morals of our young men, and giving them a place in which they 
may have joy—I have considered it from a dozen different angles, 
and I believe that it is a profoundly important movement: it is a 
fundamentally important movement that every church in Washing¬ 
ton should support, and I believe that they will do so sooner or later. 

Mr. Grosser. I want to read three sections from the constitution 
of the Grover Cleveland Community Forum for the purpose of ex¬ 
plaining why Dr. Jackson is found in this particular community 
forum: 

Section 1. The membership of this forum includes every adult (white) citi¬ 
zen residing in the public-school district of the Grover Cleveland School; that 
is, the territory from which children come to this building. 

Sec. 2. Until proper and adequate provision is made for the necessary secre¬ 
tarial and janitor expenses to be paid out of public funds, as other public educa¬ 
tional expenses are paid out of public funds, there shall be a sustaining mem¬ 
bership composed of all citizens who contribute 50 cents or more per year to 
be used in paying these necessary expenses of the forum. 

Sec. 3. Until such time as there may be similar community forums estab¬ 
lished in other sections of the city, any adult resident of the District of Colum¬ 
bia may attend and participate in this forum assembly as though he were a 
resident of the Grover Cleveland neighborhood. 

Dr. Jackson. That covers it. 

STATEMENT OF MRS. N. H. DARTON, PRESIDENT OF FRANKLIN- 
TH0MS0N HOME SCHOOL ASSOCIATION. 

Mrs. Darton. Mr. Chairman. I am not a member of the Grover 
Cleveland Community Forum, but I am president of the Parents- 
Teachers’ Association of the Franklin-Thomson School, which is one 
of the organizations using, the schoolrooms under the present law. I 
want to speak particularly to this gentleman in favor of the present 
law. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 187 


Mr. Mapes. I am not the chairman. 

-Mrs. Darton. My remarks will be in connection with the present 
law. A lady said to me yesterday, when she heard that T was going 
to speak here in behalf of this measure, “ You have no right to be the 
president of a parents-teachers’ association and oppose the board of 
education.” She seemed to think that the Parents-Teachers’ Associa¬ 
tion must always work under the board of education and agree with 
the views of the board of education—that is, that I ought to support 
the board of education and not support the Parents-Teachers’ Asso¬ 
ciation. Now. for two years we have worked in absolute harmony 
with the board of education, and I am speaking to-day in behalf of 
the board of education, because this bill is going to assist them 
greatly. It will relieve them of a great deal of trouble and possible 
friction. Mr. Blair said the other day that the board of education 
was willing to open the schools on Sunday, provided the people de¬ 
manded it, and, therefore, the board of education has made no objec¬ 
tion on that point. My Parents-Teachers’ Association consists of 
about 600 parents, more or less. They do not always come to the 
meetings of the association, but many of them come. 

Mr. Lloyd. How many of them come? 

Mrs. Darton. Perhaps 150. They come in varying numbers. 
Some of them come at one time and some come at other times. They 
do not all come at once. Then, under the law which provides for 
social-center work, we have established a social center at our school. 
You have heard of the social center at the Grover Cleveland School, 
and there is another one in the city, of which Mrs. Kebler is the 
president. That is a most successful association, and its president, 
Mrs. Kebler, is a very remarkable woman. There is still another 
association, of which Mrs. Farley is president. Mrs. Kebler is a 
woman of great energy and executive ability. I am the president of 
my association; but I have, of course, various limitations. In my 
social-center work I am afraid I have not proven to be so capable, 
so that my social-center work, I am afraid, does not measure to the 
standard set by Mrs. Kebler, because I do not possess those peculiar 
characteristics or qualifications. Now, riiv children have a right to 
have a social center. We need it terribly in the central part of the 
city. This bill provides for trained executives who understand this 
work, and naturally such persons who are able to do this work would 
he appointed. Do not think altogether of the forums under this bill, 
but think of the social-center activities also. 

In this connection, let me say, when we started our social center at 
the Franldin-Thomson School we had an electric lantern, but we did 
not have all the attachments needed in connection with it, and certain 
additional lights were required. We found that the boys were quite 
noisy when we tried to do the work in one room, and we needed more 
room for it and we needed additional lights. Therefore, we asked 
for lights in the room and for what was necessary to make available 
for use the lantern that had been installed. Now, I suppose the 
board of education was pestered to death by us. We would see them, 
one at a time on different occasions, and I suppose they thought we 
were an awful nuisance, because, of course, they have other things 
to do. One lady would come in at one time and another lady would 
come in at another time, but if there had been a definite head to our 


188 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

association the board of education would have known Avith whom to 
deal and matters would have been greatly simplified. Under this 
proposed new law, the board of education will always know with 
whom to deal and what person is responsible for things. They can 
take matters up with that one responsible head instead of having to 
talk to a number of ladies who may come with a variety of appeals. 
There are a number of schools that have no social centers and no 
open forum, and they will need some executive to do this work for 
them. In connection with the meetings of our Parent-Teachers’ As¬ 
sociation, I want to say that we have a great many doctors and 
scientific people in our association. We have a great many educated 
people and then we have some poor people. Many of them are edu¬ 
cated also, but they are poor. 

For instance, we have a Jewish tailor who works all day and often 
very late at night. We have one man who has eight children to 
support, and he can not come to the meetings, because he frequently 
works at night to earn a quarter by pressing a suit of clothes to aid 
in the support of his children. We have another Jewish tailor who 
manages to come, but he is so tired when he gets there that he goes 
to sleep. That shows how exciting our meetings are. Now, we have 
no idea of using the schools on Sunday, or my association has not, 
because we are perfectly satisfied as we are. A majority of our 
people are able to come and there has been no lapse in that direc¬ 
tion; but it seems to me that if my little Jewish tailor or Italian 
tailor or other people in my association should say, 4 We want to 
come and learn how to raise our children properly; we want to 
come and learn what to do with the babies, and we want to know 
something about the proper educational training of our children, 
but we can not come except at night, and then we are too tired to 
come, and the mothers can not leave their babies, but I could come on 
Sunday afternoons,” then, I think, they should be allowed to come 
when they can. I want you to understand that that is the only 
reason I have in mind, because I want to go to church on Sunday 
afternoon. I want to go to church Sunday afternoon, but I feel 
that my course would be much more Christian like if I gave up 
going to church on an occasion in order to come to a meeting of my 
association for the purpose of helping these people to learn of those 
fundamental things that have so much bearing upon the happiness 
of their families. Now, I have in my association some people who 
are trained for this service, and if they approved of opening the 
building on Sunday, there would be no scandal about it. I do not 
believe there would be anything scandalous about it if the bill pro¬ 
vided that the buildings could be opened on Sunday for this purpose. 

Then, of course, our association is supposed to talk only on school 
topics and we try to stick very closely to that; but if my little tailor 
man wanted to find out something about his neighbor’s business or 
the minimum wage law or anything like that, I should not consider 
Aye were desecrating the Sabbath at all in giving him that informa¬ 
tion. 

The purpose of all sermons is to stir your heart with impulses to¬ 
ward helping your felloAv man. When I Avent last Sunday—although 
not a member of this forum—to hear Mr. Nolan, and when I came 
from there after seeing these people rise up in the meeting and speak 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 189 

in favor of the elevation of the poor, the helping of the babies and 
the wives, I came out stirred with the feeling I would like to help 
out. That was almsgiving. I may not have given any alms but the 
sympathy I gave and the desire to help their needs was alms. 

In our school we are given the free, complete, and generous use 
of the school building, but we have certain regulations. We are 
not allowed to smoke on the premises; We are not allowed to sell 
tickets or force the children to sell them, and I am sure that this 
bill does not provide that we shall do anything the board of educa¬ 
tion would think unworthy or improper, and furthermore lam quite 
sure we would not want to do anything they thought would be im¬ 
proper, because they are just like ourselves. They are no special 
people. They are elected from all of us, and their standards are 
likely to be the same as my standards and my people’s standards. 

The bill does provide that the schools shall not he used during 
school hours. It was stated yesterday that the bill does not provide 
that, but it does. 

Furthermore, mention was made that the heating would have to be 
kept up on Sunday. I think it is the experience of every householder 
that the furnace should be kept going every Sunday, and it would 
be quite uneconomical if the furnace was allowed to go out and the 
fire built up again on Monday. I think that is the experience of 
every householder. In a building which is used as a social center, the 
janitor has told me he can heat the assembly room in 15 minutes, 
so I do not think it would be imposing any great burden to use the 
assembly hall for two hours in an afternoon. 

After all, we have not any authority to do an}dhing at these forums 
but to talk, and really, if we did talk some foolishness we could not 
do any harm. 

Mr. Vinson. And you would save the District Committee from 
listening to it all the time. 

Mrs. Darton. Is this foolishness? 

Mr. Vinson. Oh, not at all. 

Mr. Crosser. And you would not disturb me in my religious 
devotions. 

Mrs. Darton. I am sure we would not. Under the new law they 
have stated that 20 people were to open these buildings. Twenty 
people can apply to the board of education to open the buildings, 
and then the board of education advertises it and everybody in the 
neighborhood knows about it, because it is advertised just as we 
advertise our Parent-Teachers’ Association meetings, and people 
come to those meetings on our advertisement. That is the one way 
and the strongest way we have of reaching the outside public, and 
we often have them there. The outside public, therefore, can come 
to this first meeting of the organization and say, “We do not want 
to organize,” and when the vote is taken those in favor say “aye” 
and those opposed say “ no,” and if the noes have it, then the majority 
certainly rules and the 20 can easily be voted down if it is not the 
desire of the community to organize. 

At present the majority does not open the school building. If you 
want the school building at present you go to the board of education, 
and they have the authority to give it to you. I am not contesting 
that authority at all, because I am sure they always use it wisely, 


190 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

just as we would; but putting it up as a point against this bill that 
the majority would not be considered, I say the majority is not con¬ 
sidered now, because various private organizations are permitted to 
use the buildings now—for instance, the George Washington Uni¬ 
versity alumni banquet and dance at the Wilson Normal and the 
Washington Collegiate Alumni banquet at Business High. I have 
no objection to that, and that seems to me to be all right, because it 
is a public building; but perhaps somebody else would have objection 
to it because it is not majority rule. 

These forums also are to be limited by the board of education. 
Twenty people within a radius of half a mile of a school can ask for 
the opening of the forum, but the board of education is given the 
authority to say how large that forum shall be. They may choose 
to have it 3 miles, and is entirely left to them; and if the board of 
education finds that they have an organization, but only a small 
organization, it can extend the geographical limits so as to make it 
a larger one. Somebody said they would keep on adding and adding 
until we were going to spend $25,000 a year. I think if we spend 
$25,000 a year for this purpose, that proves that we want it. If there 
are to be such a number of forums started here as to cost that amount 
of money, I think that certainly shows that the people want them. 1 
think that the people who object to that amount of money being spent 
for this purpose had better look into the appropriations we spend 
on our schools and see where they cost $10,000 a room. I am a tax¬ 
payer, and I object to that, and 1 am going to look into that myself. 
Why should it cost $10,000 a room to build a new building? And if 
we take an old building and build an extension of four rooms to that 
building, the four rooms cost $40,000. If we are going to attack this 
bill on that sort of basis, let us attack it in a broad way and say we 
are going to change these things. If we are going to attack it on 
the Sunday question, let us attack it in a broad way. Let us change 
it and enact a Sunday law; and that law will not affect the forum a 
bit, because it will close the theaters and places of amusement where 
Ruth St. Denis is permitted to dance in scanty attire. It will close 
the saloons, which are centers of evil, and it will close the moving 
pictures, which are full of horrid air; but it would not affect the 
forum a bit. 

They say that if these rooms are used by the people, they are not 
going to be in proper condition for the children the next morning. 
Most of the schools already have a couple of janitors, and between 
them they might be able to spread the work so we would not be im¬ 
posing on the janitors so much; and we are very anxious to be friends 
of the janitors. Our janitor is lovely to us, and we would do any¬ 
thing for him; and I think the janitor’s calling is one of the noblest 
we have. I do not believe the janitors actually oppose us at heart, 
but they are a little bit afraid of working too hard or that we are 
going to impose upon them. If they were sure we were not, I believe 
they would be with us. 

In reference to the condition of the school the following morning, 
there are schools now in which night school is held in this city. In 
my building the school is turned over to foreign classes, to children 
and grown-up people, and we have a large foreign class which comes 
into our schoolroom, and the children go in the next morning and 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 191 

use it. It is used by these foreign classes every Monday, Wednesday, 
and Friday night, and we have never found occasion to complain that 
the building was not properly prepared for our children the next 
morning. I think the board of education thinks it is quite well taken 
care of, and we have never criticized or found any fault; and so I 
can not see why there is necessarily going to be any danger of that 
sort. If it is good enough for the children of my school to be taught 
in those rooms after the foreign classes and the night classes, it is 
good enough for the children of some other room to be taught in 
after their fathers and mothers have met there. 

Mr. Johnson. Do you know whether the members of the board of 
education have been attending these forums or not? 

Mrs. Darton. I heard Mr. Blair say he was at one, but I am not 
a faithful attendant myself, so I can not say. 

Mr. Johnson. I was anxious to know whether those who are op¬ 
posing them had gone there to see what was there. 

Mrs. Darton. I object to that. I do not believe the board of edu¬ 
cation is opposing this proposition. I do not think Mr. Thurston 
is opposing it, and Mr. Blair apparently said the other day he was 
not opposing it, and I think it is unkind to imply that there are 
differences between the board of education and ourselves. We are 
fighting for the board of education and we would not oppose them 
at all. As a member of an organization which uses a school build¬ 
ing, I have not a single objection to the board of education in its 
dealings with me; only, if I wanted to have my people meet on 
Sunday, if they could not meet any other day, I think the board of 
education ought to give the building to me; but I have not asked 
them for that. Now, I suppose I will think of something else to say 
after I sit down. 

Mr. Mapf.s. Do you not think they would ? 

Mr. Crosser. Are you a school teacher ? 

Mrs. Darton. No; I never was a school teacher. I am a plain little 
mother with two children in the school. My little daughter went to 
the forum once and was terribly bored, but I do not think she lost a 
bit of her religious feeling by listening to the tales of the suffering 
of the poor people who get only $1.50 a day. Ask me some questions. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I shall be very glad to do so. My friend wants to 
ask you a question, and after he concludes I will be very glad to ask 
you a question. 

Mr. Mapes. I asked you one but you did not hear it. The applause 
drowned out what I said. You said y<?u think the board of educa¬ 
tion ought to grant permission to some of these people to use the 
building if they can not go any other day. 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Mapes. Do you not think they would ? 

Mrs. Darton. Well, I do not think they would. They refused the 
Grover Cleveland people, and therefore I fancy they would refuse 
me. I do not think they are at all spiteful to the Grover Cleveland 
Forum, and I think they would do it for them if they would do if 
for me. 

Mr. Mapes. Do you think the Grover Cleveland people met all the 
conditions you put into your statement ? 

Mrs. Darton. I had in mind similar conditions. 


192 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Mapes. I mean that they could not go any other day of the 
week. 

Mrs. Darton. I think they must have thought so, in that they 
decided to have it on that day. 

Mr. Mapes. You think Mr. Driscoll and Dr. Jackson and Mr. 
Nolan and these other people could not attend some other day? 

Mrs. Darton. Judging from the people who spoke at the forum 
last Sunday, who arose from the floor all over the forum, I should 
say there were many of them of the working class who could come 
easier on Sunday than any other day. Yes; I really think so. 

Mr. Mapes. You say “ who could come easier ” ? 

Mrs. Darton. Is it quite fair to impose an added burden upon 
the teachers, for instance? The teachers want to attend these 
meetings. 

Mr. Mapes. Not too much of a burden. I would not have any 
serious objection to it myself. 

Mrs. Darton. And every forum does not want to meet on Sunday. 

Mr. Mapes. I think it is rather unfortunate to have this issue 
brought into this special question. 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; because of the many forums that will be estab¬ 
lished in the city there will be very few to meet on Sunday. I would 
use my influence to have them meet on a week night because I want 
my Sundays for other purposes, but for the few forums that really 
find it essential to their success to meet then, I think they should be 
allowed to do so. 

Mr. Mapes. Do you not think that those people and those com¬ 
munities that find themselves so limited could go before the board of 
education and explain the situation and the board would be per¬ 
fectly willing to open any given school building to them ? 

Mrs. Darton. Not now, it won’t, because if you refuse to pass this 
bill you virtually are turning it down on the strength of the Sunday 
question. 

Mr. Mapes. I think we are expressing a difference- 

Mrs. Darton (interposing). Really, that is the way it will be 
interpreted, although you may not mean it that way. You have to 
consider that when you do turn it down that is the way it is going 
to be put before the people. All the good newspaper reporters are 
going to see to that. 

Mr. Mapes. I do not think they would have any right to draw that 
conclusion, although they might do so. 

Mrs. Darton. I think that will be so. I do not think they can 
object to us for any other reason. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Now I will comply with your request and ask you 
a question or two as a personal favor to you. Are you in favor of 
this particular bill as written? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; I think so. No; I would like an amendment 
or two. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You would like an amendment or two? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Therefore, do you not think we are wise in trying 
to develop the fact that this bill needs to be amended before it is 
passed ? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 193 


Mrs. Darton. Yes. You have definite ideas on the subject, and I 
think it is your duty to put those ideas into the bill. I am sure 
Mr. Johnson is perfectly willing to alter this bill slightly. 

Mr. Ragsdale. For instance, do you not think if it were a com¬ 
munity comprised of mixed races—say negroes, Japanese, Chinese, 
and white people- 

Mrs. Darton. Now, you are going to ask me- 

Mr. Ragsdale. You have asked me to ask you a question; noAV 
permit me to do so, if you please. Do you not think it ought to be 
so written in the law that the various schoolhouses to be used for 
these meeting places ought to be restricted to that particular race 
whose children are attending the school? 

Mrs. Darton. Personally, I do think so. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That ought to be in the law? 

Mrs. Darton. I really think so. They say it is left to the discre¬ 
tion of the board of education to appoint these forums or to desig¬ 
nate the school building for the community forum, and the board of 
education is not going to designate a white building for a colored 
forum, nor a colored building for a white forum. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Pardon me; there seems to be a popular error 
under which you labor. We will take, say, the Central High School. 
Suppose that were designated. On the street where I live they are 
all white people on that street, but on the other side of the Central 
High School they are nearly all negroes. If you were to draw a 
circle around the Central High School, to go even 50 yards in any 
direction, would you not get more negroes than you would white 
people ? 

Mrs. Darton. All right. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Please answer that question. 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; but the commissioners state how large that 
territory is to be, and the people from all that territory can come 
in and swamp the colored vote; so there you are. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But you make this bill read in this way: 

The by-laws and regulations as adopted shall show that the primary object 
of the association is the public education of the- community through the open 
presentation and free discussion of public questions. 

Now, let us come right down to the test— 

and nothing contained in the by-laws and regulations shall limit the attendance 
or membership of persons at meetings of the association, except as provided in 
section 2 of this act. 

Now, you and I know that the only limitation in section 2 of the 
act is that they must be adult persons living within half a mile of 
the building. Therefore if there be a mixed population who are 
adults living within a half mile of the building they would have a 
right to be members, because they would have the right to attend, 
and by enacting this law you divest the board of all power, and you 
absolutely create a condition where you can have mixed audiences; 
is not that true? 

Mrs. Darton. I have said I approved of an amendment. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I know, but that is true, is it not? 

Mrs. Darton. I really think that is true, but under the present 

bill- 


38523—16-13 





194 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). And you think that ought to be 
amended ? 

Mrs. Darton. I think it would be wiser to amend it, although I 
do not believe the colored people are going to force themselves into a 
white assemblage, nor the whites into a colored assemblage. 

Mr. Ragsdale. It is not a question of whether would or not, but 
whether they would have the right to do that or not. 

Mrs. Darton. I think they would have the right to do it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Whereas you give the board of education now the 
right to prohibit the white people from going to the colored schools 
and the colored people from going to the white schools, you now 
divest the board of all authority which they may exert to protect the 
races from this coattendance, and do you not think that in writing 
the new law you should put in a provision which will give some 
rights to be enforced which will retain the same condition of affairs 
by which they are now segregated ? 

Mrs. Darton. But that is so easily done. I have it written here. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I am not asking how it shall be done. I am asking 
you if it should be done. 

Mrs. Darton. I said before I thought it ought to be done. It 
should be provided that the schools now being used by white people 
should be available for white adults only, and that leaves only the 
question of whether the board of education cares to set aside any 
colored building. 

Mr. Mapes. Is that democracy with a small “ d ” ? 

Mrs. Darton. It is the democracy we have now. If it is not good 
enough now for a forum, it is not good enough for our public-school 
children. If it is not good enough for me to be restricted from going 
with colored adults, it is not good enough for my children. If you 
do not approve of it for me, do not let my children suffer under it 
any longer. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Now, pardon me- 

Mrs. Darton. I love to answer your questions. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I am quite sure of that, and I am doing this to 
please you. 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; and you are pleasing me. 

Mr. Ragsdale. There is nothing that gives me more pleasure than 
to please you. Now, what is your amendment? 

Mrs. Darton. “ Provided , however , That the schools now used by 
white pupils”—I made this up myself—“be available for white 
adults only.” 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then, if they were within half a mile of the white 
school and were not within half a mile of a colored school, you would 
cut those poor people from attending at all, would you not? 

Mrs. Darton. No. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Why would you not? 

Mrs. Darton. Because there is no statement in here that you shall 
live within half a mile of a school to attend the forum. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I beg your pardon. 

Mrs. Darton. Oh, no. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Now, let us see. 

Mrs. Darton. All right; the commissioners shall fix the territorial 
limits. 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 195 

Mr. Ragsdale. The bill provides: 

Sec. 2. That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Commis¬ 
sioners of the District of Columbia by not less than 20 adult persons residing 
within a radius of one-half mile of a public-school building designated by the 
said commissioners for use as a community forum, the said commissioners 
shall define and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must 
reside to entitle them to membership, etc. 

Mrs. Darton. That might be 3 miles. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes; but if that be true, how could you differ¬ 
entiate in a particular locality designated by the commissioners, and 
take two people living right side by side, one of one race and one 
of another, and say that one should go to one forum and one to 
another ? 

Mrs. Darton. You do that with my children now in the public 
schools. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But that is a discretionary matter in which you 
do not draw any area. The school board regulates that matter, 
but you are taking this out of the power of the school board and 
putting it in the hands of the people of that locality. 

Mrs. Darton. You are putting it in the power of the people of 
that locality to establish a forum but not to fix the limitations, be¬ 
cause that rests strictly with the commissioners. 

Air. Ragsdale. They merely fix the limits, and all the people 
within that territory have the right to enjoy the privileges of the 
forum. 

Mrs. Darton. Now, let us read this bill. They fix the terri¬ 
torial limits within which adult persons must reside to entitle them 
to membership and participation in an association of adult persons 
to use as a community forum a public-school building designated. 
Now, here is the situation: The colored people want a forum, and 
the white people want a forum, and they live in the same neighbor¬ 
hood, in my neighborhood, we will say. The commissioners desig¬ 
nate Thomson School as a forum center, and they fix the geographi¬ 
cal limitations, as required by my amendment and by your amend¬ 
ment. They fix that at a mile, we will say. Then we will take the 
colored school. I do not know the name of the colored school, but 
we will say the Johnson School or the Blake School. They fix the 
Blake School as a colored forum. They have the right to fix the 
territorial limit in which the people must reside to belong to that 
forum. They can fix the limitations for the Johnson or the Blake 
colored forum at 4 miles. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But that is impossible under this bill. 

Mrs. Darton. No ; I do not think so. 

Air. Ragsdale. It is impossible, unless it is amended. 

Airs. Darton. Excuse me; I said considering my amendment and 
your amendment. 

Air. Ragsdale. Then the next proposition is this: Do you think a 
minority of any community ought to compel the majority to yield 
over their public property for the use of the minority ? 

Airs. Darton. Twenty people have the right to call this meeting, 
and the board of education advertises it zealously, urges everybody 
to come, and all the majority would have to do would be to flock 
there and say, “ AVe do not want this meeting.” When the meeting 


196 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

is held to organize the forum, there is a temporary chairman ap¬ 
pointed, and he would say, “ We are prepared now to make a move¬ 
ment to organize as a forum.” Those in favor say “Aye ” and the 
minority says u Ave” and the majority says “No,” and that is all 
there is to it 

Mr. Ragsdale. Now, let us say, for the sake of the argument, that 
in a community of 5,000 people 100 turned out. Section 4 of this 
law provides: 

That at a meeting of adult persons called for the organization of an associa¬ 
tion for community forum purposes the said persons are authorized to elect 
necessary officers and to prescribe and adopt by-laws and regulations for the 
conduct of the meetings of the association. 

In other words, without regard to the number who attend, without 
regard to any other qualification other than that stated before—I will 
permit Mr. Crosser to continue. 

Mr. Crosser. I beg your pardon. 

Mrs. Darton. He can not help talking to the ladies when they 
stand so near him. Mr. Ragsdale, 1 want to answer that question 
and pay attention. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Really, I hate to divert you from so agreeable a 
conversation with Mr. Crosser. 

Mr. Grosser. I beg your pardon, Mr. Ragsdale. 

Mrs. Darton. Mr. Ragsdale, how are you going to know that the 
majority opposes this movement? If this meeting is called and 100 
people out of 5,000 people attend the meeting, you have no right to 
say that the 4,900 others object to the meeting. They may not op¬ 
pose it at all, but simply may be indifferent. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you not think that before any public properties 
are turned over to any people; do you not think that before any 
taxes are laid, which become a burden upon the people; do you not 
think before any liabilities are incurred, which rest upon the people, 
that there should be an expression on the proposition from a major¬ 
ity of the people? 

Mr. Darton. Is not that provided right here ? When the meeting 
is called, 5,000 people can attend. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But 5,000 people do not attend—only 100. 

Mrs. Darton. But they can attend. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you not think there ought to be some restriction 
as to the number in a community ? 

Mrs. Darton. No, sir. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You think if there are only 10 or 20 or 30 they 
ought to be entitled to the use of the building? 

Mrs. Darton. If there is a community so benighted that the mem¬ 
bers of the community will not come out and state their opinions, 
then they have no real interest in the school building. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And you think their interest in the school building 
is not a question of using it as a place of education, but a question 
of the utilization of it for their own purposes, and if they prefer 
that it shall be used for educational purposes and closed on Sundays, 
then you think they are benighted? 

Mrs. Darton. No; I say if they are so benighted they will not 
come out and state their opinions; didn’t I say that? 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 197 


Mr. Ragsdale. In other words, if these people prefer to go to 
church on Sunday rather than go to a forum, then they are be¬ 
nighted? 

Mrs. Darton. I am so glad you thought of that. You will notice 
that the board of education instructs the principal to call this meet¬ 
ing, and that is under the principal of the school building. I believe 
there is no one principal of a school building who will call that 
meeting on Sunday, to begin with. He will call the first meeting on 
Friday night, and he superintends it. 1 think it is the board of edu¬ 
cation which fixes the date. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Pardon me right there. May I interrupt you? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You say the poor people can not turn out on Friday 
nights, and the only time they can come out is on Sunday. Do you 
mean to tell me that this board would be so hard-hearted and so 
indifferent to the rights of the poor people of the community that 
they would call the meeting at a time when they could not attend? 

Mrs. Darton. I did not say that the poor people could not come 
out any Friday night. I believe any public-spirited citizen in the 
city Avould sacrifice anything to come one night to the organization 
of this thing if they approve it or if they disapprove of it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You think they would ? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then, why is it that the people have not come out? 

Mrs. Darton. To the Grover Cleveland Forum? 

Mr. Ragsdale. What is your total membership ? 

Mrs. Darton. I do not belong to the forum. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You do not belong to the forum? 

Mrs. Darton. No. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Why not? Do you belong to the benighted class? 

Mrs. Darton. I believe in being strictly fair. I did not say they 
were benighted who did not belong to it. I said they were benighted 
people who did not state their opinions. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Could they state their opinion unless they went 
and became members? 

Mrs. Darton. No; but they do not have to become members. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I beg your pardon. 

Mrs. Darton. Oh, no. 

Mr. Ragsdale. They must join and become members in order to 
vote. 

Mrs. Darton. Oh, no. 

Mr. Lloi t o. I hope there will be no quarrel between the witness and 
the gentleman from South Carolina. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I am only pleasing her. This is at her personal re¬ 
quest. I did not do this voluntarily. I am trying to please the lady. 

Mrs. Darton. And you are. You are not quarreling with me a bit. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Certainly not. 

Mrs. Darton. And I am trying to convince you so you will work 
for this bill and put your amendment in. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Now, to resume, after the chairman interrupted our 
pleasant conversation, they have to be members in order to vote, do 
they not? 


198 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Mrs. Darton. No; I do not think that is so at all. What do you 
mean by “ members ”? Everybody who goes is a member. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The bill reads: 

That at a meeting of adult persons called for the organization of an associa¬ 
tion for community-forum purposes the said persons are authorized to elect 
necessary officers and to prescribe and adopt by-laws and regulations for the 
conduct of the meetings of the association. 

Do you mean to tell me that people who are not to be members 
would be allowed to elect the officers and prescribe the by-laws for 
the members of an association to which they did not belong ? 

Mrs. Darton. Mv interpretation is that everybody is to be a 
member. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But you say you are not a member ? 

Mrs. Darton. Well, at present I am not. There is a distinction. 
The Grover Cleveland Forum is organized with certain sustaining 
members, and I am not a sustaining member. I am not a paying 
member. 

Mr. Ragsdale. May I ask why not? 

Mrs. Darton. But I attend. I am economical. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Are you more economical than these poor people 
who are to be allowed the privilege of coming to this forum? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You mean to say you want the poor people to con¬ 
tribute to maintain a forum for you to go to? 

Mrs. Darton. No; I do not. I want the general taxpayers to con¬ 
tribute and to support it. I do not want the poor people to sup¬ 
port it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But do they not contribute now ? 

Mrs. Darton. The poor people? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes. You say there are pay members, and you 
are not one of them. 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Why not? 

Mrs. Darton. I told you I wanted to go somewhere else on Sunday 
afternoons. 

Mr. Ragsdale. So you are providing a place for others to go, but 
one that you do not want to go to yourself? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; but because I want to go to church is no 
reason they should have to go to church. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Then, as a matter of fact, this forum ought to be 
established for other people and not for yourself? 

Mrs. Darton. It ought to be established for those who want it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. For other more benighted people than yourself; 
is that the idea ? 

Mrs. Darton. Like Miss Wilson. It ought to be for those who 
want it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But you do not want to have one which you will 
have to go to on Sunday? 

Mrs. Darton. I do not want to have to go to anything. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And you do not want to attend on Sunday ? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; I do sometimes and sometimes I do not. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Generally speaking, you do not. You said so just 
now. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 199 

Mrs. Darton. You ought to see my husband and you would 
understand why not. 

Mr. Ragsdale. In other words, you would rather be with your 
husband than at a forum? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And you think a good many other women would 
be better off in the same way ? 

Mrs. Darton. No; I do not. 

Mr. Ragsdale. This is only peculiar to you and your husband and 
is not peculiar to anybody else ? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes; strictly so. I think we are draws. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You do? 

Mrs. Darton. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is fine. I think any man who can enter into a 
debate with a woman at her request and quit even is fortunate if she 
says so. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is that all ? 

Mrs. Darton. That is all. 

Mr. Johnson. Permit me to suggest right here that I agree with 
Mr. Ragsdale that in the House or in the committee, to avoid just 
such a controversy as we have had here, the amendment ought to go 
in. Besides that, I am in favor of separating the races in these 
things, but I believe the law already does it. Under the law every 
schoolhouse for the colored people can be used only by the colored 
people. 

Mrs. Darton. That is, under the present law. 

Mr. Johnson. And every schoolhouse for the white people can 
only be used for the white people; that is the present law. Now, 
you are undertaking to distinguish between children and adults. In 
the District of Columbia there is no law fixing a maximum school 
age; the old man can go just as well as the child can go, and there¬ 
fore I believe it is an unnecessary controversy; but in order that 
there may be no further controversy, I would be in favor of adopting 
the amendment which you suggest. 

Mrs. Darton. You are not going to give Mr. Ragsdale the credit 
for it? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; we will give Mr. Ragsdale the credit. 

Mrs. Darton. I am willing to do that. 

Mr. Johnson. He will offer the amendment and I will vote for it. 

Mr. Lloyd. I do not understand why the tailor went to sleep. He 
must have been awfully tired. 

Gentlemen, we want to conclude, if possible, in 15 minutes. Dr. 
MacMurray feels that it is due him or his side to have about 5 min¬ 
utes to make reply to some of the statements made by Dr. Jackson, 
and, if no one objects, we will give him 5 minutes. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF REV. JOHN MacMURRAY. 

Dr. MacMurray. Mr. Chairman, I think, in view of what Dr. 
Jackson said, and in view of the fact it was addressed not to a be¬ 
nighted but an intelligent audience, they will be perfectly able to 
weigh all the facts. At first I thought that might not be so, but on 
further consideration I think it is so, and, furthermore, what he said 
has no direct bearing upon the bill. 


200 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

I am sorry that so much emphasis was placed on the Sunday side 
of it, and had we known before our side closed that some of these 
statements were to be made, we would have had representatives pres¬ 
ent from the Lord’s Day Alliance, and others, who appeared before 
the board of education. I do not think, however, that we want to 
take up any of the time of the committee; I think they are men of 
judgment and able to form their own opinions from all the facts that 
have been presented. So I thank you very much. 

Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Syme, corporation counsel of the District, wishes 
to be heard as the representative of the Commissioners of the Dis¬ 
trict, and we will be glad to hear from him now. Please make your 
remarks as short as possible, because there is an important matter 
before the House and the members of the committee want to attend. 

STATEMENT OF CONRAD H. SYME, ESQ., CORPORATION COUNSEL 
OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Syme. I will make my remarks as brief as I possibly can. 

I could say that I appear here, perhaps, in three capacities; one, 
officially for the commissioners, as they have sent their favorable 
recommendation as to the passage of this bill. 

Mr. Lloyd. Has that recommendation gone into the hearings ? 

Mr. Syme. I do not know, sir, whether it has been put in the hear¬ 
ings or not. 

Miss Wilson. I think I put it in. 

Mr. Lloyd. Perhaps it has been put in; I do not know. 

Mr. Syme. In any event the commissioners have favorably re¬ 
ported on the bill, so far as they are concerned. I could speak, sec¬ 
ondly, as a citizen who has lived here 34 years, perhaps a longer 
time than anyone who has heretofore spoken, and, in the third place, 
I could speak on this bill, I think, properly as a citizen of the 
United States. 

As briefly as possible, the single question, as I see it, before us now 
is a perfectly simple one, easily determined, and I do not think it 
justifies, perhaps, either hysterics or heroics at all. It is the simple 
proposition as to whether or not the people of the District are to be 
given the right, as a right, at proper times, in proper seasons, and 
without interfering with the primary purpose of school buildings, 
which is education, to use them for the meetings of the several com¬ 
munities, in which they may discuss their own affairs, whether they 
are local or whether they are national, political, ethical, or other¬ 
wise. That is the simple question before the committee. If the citi¬ 
zens are to be given that right the balance of it, the protection of 
the buildings and the territorial limits of organization of the forums, 
are matters of detail which can be adjusted according to the judg¬ 
ment of this committee. If they are not going to be given that right 
it is useless to discuss the details, because they are in exactly the 
position of the fellow who was invited to play poker and who said 
he had 10 reasons why he could not play, the first one being that 
he had no money. The fellow who asked him to play said “ To the 
devil with the other nine.” If they are not to get the right there is 
no use to discuss the details. 

It is difficult to approach this question without, perhaps, putting 
oneself in the position, it may be, of being accused of demogogy be- 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 201 

cause it comes back finally and fundamentally to the initial and 
basic proposition, in my judgment, on which the Government of the 
United States is founded and upon which every other Government 
that boasts of free institutions is founded, and that is in the right 
of the people themselves to so inform themselves as to their own 
affairs that they can intelligently instruct those who are to represent 
them in government in carrying out their wishes for the best web 
fare of their country. If anyone here—and I think there was one 
member of the committee whose ideas of representative government 
and mine clearly differ—thinks that this Government is founded on 
any other principle I would call their prayerful attention to the pre¬ 
amble of the Constitution of the United States and to the first 
amendment. The very moment that it ever gets into the head of 
anybody charged with the making of laws in a representative gov¬ 
ernment that the laws of the country are or should be any more than 
the reflection of the wishes of the people who send representatives 
as trustees and as servants to execute their will, and they continue 
long in that belief, the probabilities are that we will miss their 
smiling countenances in the councils of the nation. 

So far as the forum idea is concerned it gets back to the proposition 
of furnishing the means and the instrumentalities by which communi¬ 
ties can meet in their own buildings, at proper seasons, to discuss their 
own affairs, under proper regulations. Outside of its fundamental 
virtue as a foundational right of a free government, the great virtue 
of it here is that under proper organization it enables the people who 
have to come here as Members of Congress to ascertain what the 
people of the several communities want in some sort of a regular 
way, so that they can come here and tell you what our local needs are, 
and, perhaps, even express broader views. There is this great-— 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). May I ask you a question right there? 

Mr. Syme. Yes. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The people of my part of the country are taxed, in 
part, to erect the school buildings here—that is true, is it not? 

Mr. Syme. Why, of course. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you not think that I should consider their wishes 
and interest in the matter, certainly to the same degree that I would 
the wishes of the people of the District, as my people help to pay for 
the property ? 

Mr. Syme. I do not like, Mr. Ragsdale, to set up my standard of 
what a man should or should not do. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Well, sir, you have come here to tell us what we 
should do in this regard, and therefore I have the right to ask what 
your views are on other matters of interest to me. 

Mr. Syme. I am certainly going to give you my views here as prop¬ 
erly as it is possible for me to give them. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I certainly would not want your views unless they 
were proper; I would not want to have improper views, sir. 

Mr. Syme. I am quite willing to allow the question of proprieties 
to subside. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I did not raise it, sir, I assure you. 

Mr. Syme. I am not here to tell you what you should do; I am 
here to present my views and to say that I think this law ought to 
be enacted. If those views are such that they meet with your judg¬ 
ment and you think they are correct views, or you care to accept any 



202 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


of the other views you have heard, it seems to me it is your duty to 
determine for yourself what you think you ought to do and what 
your action should be with reference to the interest of the people of 
South Carolina. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Right there let me state that you suggested that if 
I did not vote for this thing my smiling face might not be seen 
again in the councils of state. As you speak with authority upon 
what terms a man will come to Congress, I waht to find your basis 
for that authority. 

Mr. Syme. I think you will find the basis for that authority in 
the foundation of your own Government; that Representatives are 
sent to Congress to express in concrete form, if I may put it that way, 
the will of the people who send them in the making of laws, and I am 
quite sure that is the primary duty of Representatives in Congress. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I am free to get from you that authority in order to 
properly represent the people who send me here, do you not think, 
sir? 

Mr. Syme. Therefore I said I could not tell you your own duty to 
your own people. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you not think, therefore, that if I represent those 
people I should have some regard for their interests before turning 
over property which they are taxed to create to any group of people? 

Mr. Syme. If you thought it was your duty to ascertain the wishes 
or views of the people of South Carolina with reference to the right 
of the people of Washington to use the schools for community pur¬ 
poses before you could properly vote, I see no reason why you should 
not do it; but whether or not you ought to do it is a matter for your 
own judgment. 

Mr. Ragsdale. If I thought I knew their views and wishes, should 
not that be my basis for action ? 

Mr. Syme. Perhaps. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Why not certainly? 

Mr. Syme. Well, certainly; let us say certainly. If you know 
the views—or have ascertained them—of the people of your district 
in South Carolina, and they are that a part of the citizens of the 
United States should not use their school buildings for the purpose 
of public meetings, when they do not interfere with the educational 
purposes of those buildings—if they are the views of your con¬ 
stituents, and you were sent up here by them, you should vote against 
the bill. 

Mr. Ragsdale. But if. on the contrary, representing the views of 
my people, I believed that the trustees of the schools—the duly ac¬ 
credited officers in charge of this property—should have the right 
to say when and to whom this property should be turned over,"do 
you not think that would be a reasonable position for me to take, to 
allow the duly accredited authorities here to administer the prop¬ 
erty which my people were taxed to help create ? 

Mr. Syme. I will answer that question by saying that it is a mat¬ 
ter of which you are the sole judge. 

Mr. Ragsdale. I thank you; that is what I thought. 

Mr. Syme. And that is what I thought I said in answer to your 
first question. Now, we have here school property, representing 
millions of dollars, that is vacant and not used during 25 per cent 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 203 

of the time; property that is used for school purposes only five days 
out of seven, and, therefore, the question of the utility or the thing 
should be very carefully considered. 

If the forum is as important as 1 believe it to be, and as the citi¬ 
zens who have preceded me have believed it to be, as an educational 
instrumentality; if it works for good, as I believe it will work for 
good; if it works for a clear appreciation and realization of the 
people of the country and of the people here as to their own civil 
and political obligations and, perhaps, their own moral obligations, 
then I hope it is. and I believe it to be, the fact that a bill announc¬ 
ing the belief of Congress that the buildings should be used for 
these purposes and that these community meetings are right and 
are proper and beneficial for the people of the District of Colum¬ 
bia—in which the people of the United States all feel they prac¬ 
tically have a part ownership—would prove to be one of the most 
beneficial things all over the United States where it should become 
known and where it could be pointed out as a model. I think fre¬ 
quently, if it please the committee, that we attach too much local 
significance to what we do here for the people in Washington, or 
what Congress does. 

Washington is very much in the same position, in my judgment, 
with the people of this country as was the Athenian general, Themi- 
stocles. If I remember my history aright there was on one occasion 
some confusion and some difference of opinion as to who was the 
leading Athenian general, and Gen. Themistocles was put second by 
every man who voted, all having put themselves first, and he was de¬ 
termined to be the leading general in Athens. I feel Washington hks 
the same affection of the people of the United States, that their 
affection is first for the town of their nativity, or where they live, 
and that Washington is second. I think all of them look to us here; 
I think that all of them believe that their representatives here look 
upon us and upon this city as the ward of the Government, and that 
we have here in the enactments of Congress, creating, formulating, 
and controlling our local institutions, the very best intelligence of 
the United States. For that reason I think that what you do will 
have very much more than simply local significance, of giving to the 
people here the right to use these schools at proper hours and in a 
proper way, without the condition in any wise attaching to it that it 
must be a right exercised under the permission of somebody else. I 
think that is the essential thing here, to have a legislative expression 
of the right of the people to use their buildings and to organize their 
forums for the purposes determined by the bill, and that the placing 
of that right in the law is the most important possible aspect in 
which this bill can be considered. 

Mr. Ragsdale. The general talk is about the poor people having 
these privileges. How many of the so-called poor people, the work¬ 
ing class, have attended these meetings or shown any interest in them? 

Mr. Syme. I have great difficulty in my mind in determining who 
is a poor man and who is a rich man, because I never determine it 
by what they have. 

* Mr. Ragsdale. How much property would be involved in turning 
over these schools to the forums for public purposes? 


204 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Syme. I should imagine, sir, that Mr. Blair could answer you 
exactly. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Well, just approximately. 

Mr. Syme. Perhaps ten or twelve million dollars. 

Mr. Blair. $16,000,000. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Hoav many people have manifested an interest in 
depriving the school trustees of their authority over this $16,000,000 
worth of property and turning it over to the residents of the com¬ 
munities ? 

Mr. Syme. I suspect that in the record you will find that so far as 
the people of Washington have any method whatsoever of expressing 
themselves—which is onty now and then by a little local organization 
of citizens’ associations, or something of that kind, where subjects 
are frequently passed upon that have not been previously adver¬ 
tised—that a good many of the organizations here and associations 
are in favor of this bill. 

Mr. Ragsdale. What would you say is the total number of people 
Avho have appeared personally at these hearings or by representatives 
in advocating this bill ? 

Mr. Syme. It would be utterly impossible for me to answer that 
question or anyone else who has not looked at the record. So far as 
public interest in it is concerned I am only able to judge by a great 
many straws which show the way the wind blows. On two evenings, 
or afternoons, to be more accurate, forum meetings were held in the 
public library, which holds, I should imagine, 1,000 people, certainly 
six or seven hundred people, and the capacity of the library was 
absolutely taxed. And during the discussion, which lasted over two 
hours, there w T as scarcely a person who left the room. So if there 
was a meeting in a city of the same size in South Carolina and the 
meeting had been advertised to deal with public questions, and I had 
seen one of the largest halls in that city packed to its doors on Sun¬ 
day evening, or any other evening, I would have considered that 
that Avas a very large popular appreciation of the importance of the 
question, because I have been to political meetings time and again 
in the city of Washington, where national issues were involved and 
Avhere national politics were discussed and I have not seen one-fifth, 
one-fourth, or one-tenth as many people as I saw at these tAvo meet¬ 
ings at the public library, Avhere Avas discussed this question of the 
public forum. From all of that I can determine the interest in the 
question. And, Mr. Ragsdale, you gentlemen haAe no idea—and I 
did not myself until I got into this sort of a public position two years 
ago—of the aAA 7 ful difficulty we have here in reaching just what the 
people of the District Avant. There is a feeling- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). Right there, do you not think that 
until Ave have had some direct expression from a majority of the 
people, or from a larger number than are here, that Ave might safely 
trust the school board, the trustees, selected by the Supreme Court, 
to indicate to us AAdiat are the Avishes of the people of the District 
whose property they have in their control? 

Mr. Syme. I think that right there is one of the best illustrations 
of the necessity of this bill. I have just spoken to you gentlemen of 
the impossibility of ascertaining what the public sentiment is here 
on questions that lie sometimes vitally close to what Ave might call 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 205 

the moral needs of the community. I will say here and now, and 
Mr. Blair knows it, and every man in this hall knows it, and Con¬ 
gress knows it, that although prohibition has been the subject of 
discussion here for 10 years, maybe for 50 years, for all I know, 
there is not a human being in Washington after all who has the 
slightest idea as to whether or not a majority of the people in this 
District are in favor of prohibition or not, and a bill is now before 
Congress providing for a referendum, so that the people may express 
their desire on that question. 

Mr. Ragsdale. If there is doubt as to the people wanting their 
structures turned over for Sunday use, and if there is doubt in our 
minds as to the people of the District wanting to utilize them for 
these purposes, do you not think we had better resolve that doubt in 
favor of leaving the structures in the hands of the accredited officials? 

Mr. Syme. I am glad you asked me that question, for this reason: 
That the very moment you give the right to these forums to organ¬ 
ize— 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). Mr. S}mie, you know, as the law offi¬ 
cer for the District of Columbia, that they have the right to organize 
now, that they are meeting in the schools, and that they have never 
been restricted in the use of the schools except as to their use on the 
Sabbath day. 

Mr. Syme. I know perfectly well that there is no law on the statute 
books of Washington that gives any human being the right to meet 
in the schools as a right. 

Mr. Ragsdale. You know, sir, that this Congress has delegated to 
this board the right to have them use these buildings for these 
very purposes whenever the school board thinks that it is right and 
proper. 

Mr. Syme. And I know that the use of the buildings was denied on 
a ground which could not possibly be asserted as a fact which existed. 

Mr. Ragsdale. And that the use of the buildings was Only denied 
on Sunday. 

Mr. Syme. No; you do not state it correctly. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Will you state it correctly? 

Mr. Syme. I will state that the ground was that, in the opinion of 
either the president of the board or of the members of the board, the 
sentiment of the District of Columbia was against the use of the build¬ 
ings on Sunday. I have told you that there was no way that that 
board or anybody else could have known the sentiment of the District 
of Columbia on that subject. 

Mr. Ragsdale. They could have gotten up petitions or by public 
mass meetings held during the week they could have given such an 
expression as would have advised the board that the people desired 
these buildings opened on Sunday. 

Mr. Syme. And they did get that expression. 

Mr. Ragsdale. In what way? 

Mr. Syme. They advertised simply the fact that they were going 
to hold a meeting in the Public Library and they got the biggest 
public meeting ever held in this District on such a question. If 
Billy Sunday had spoken, he might have gotten more. If we had 
advertised that Billy Sunday was to speak-—a man apparently edu¬ 
cated as a baseball player, but who has little difficulty in filling his 



206 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

pews—we might have had a larger meeting or something like that. 
But those meetings at the Public Library were the most indicative 
thing to me that has occurred in connection with these forums that 
the board of education was wrong, that their judgment was wrong 
in the belief that the majority of the people of Washington objected 
to the use of those buildings on Sunday afternoons for the perfectly 
proper purpose of getting together and discussing matters and 
affairs that lie at the basis of their social and economic welfare and, 
possibly, their moral welfare. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do you not believe, as a matter of fact, that it was 
not merely the fact that it was a forum meeting but was a meeting 
which would be addressed by the daughter of the President of the 
United States, that was responsible for the large attendance at that 
meeting ? 

Mr. Syme. I would have no hesitation in saying that the fact that 
a game, brave little lady was to address the meeting would be some 
attraction. In this particular matter, I might say, that little lady 
happens to be the daughter of the President of the United States. 
Her convictions are so firmly established that, without for one mo¬ 
ment here in this committee room or elsewhere calling upon or de¬ 
pending upon her official connections in any way, she has thrown 
herself into a movement to advocate and fight for what she believes 
to be right. And nobly, beautifully, and strongly has she done it. 
1 have seen here under an interrogation as fierce as any I have seen 
in the cross-examination of witnesses on the stand in 20 years’ prac¬ 
tice. I have seen occur here twice what a lawyer usually learns in 
the first two years of his practice, namely, that it is a most danger¬ 
ous thing in the practice of law 7 to cross-examine a woman on the 
witness stand. So far as your question is concerned I want to 
answer you very frankly. I have no doubt but that some of the 
people came to that meeting for the purpose of hearing Miss Wilson 
express her position. 

Mr. Ceosser. Mr. Syme, is it true that the largest crowd was there 
when she did not speak ? 

Mr. Syme. I was not at that meeting, but I was going to request 
some one who w 7 as at that meeting to make that statement if it is 
true, because I could not make it as a fact. But I have understood 
that at the two Sunday meetings the hall w r as filled to its capacity; 
that is, on both occasions. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That was at a time when Congressmen were adver¬ 
tised to speak. Mr. Page, who opposes this forum, w T as invited to 
speak there and did speak, did he not ? 

Mr. Syme. I do not know wdiether Mr. Page opposes it or not. But 
I have very grave doubts whether Mr. Page, who comes from the 
State of North Carolina, which was the State of the Mechlenburg 
Declaration of Independence, would ever oppose the proper assem¬ 
blage of people in their own educational buildings. I do not believe 
Mr. Page opposes it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. He told me that he is opposed to it. and he told 
me no later than yesterday. 

Mr. Syme. Mr. Ragsdale, it would be beyond me to question that 
statement, sir, as given on your own personal knowledge. I have 
no doubt in the wide world that what you state is the fact. But I 
have observed this, that I have more than once in my life been 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 207 

unfortunately mistaken in conversations with people where 1 gained 
the idea that they were opposed to things when they did not intend 
to convey that impression to me. 

Mr. Ragsdale. There is no possibility of my misunderstanding 
him, because I asked him over again. I said, “ Mr. Page, why don’t 
you come over and let me put you on the stand and state your 
position?” He said, “I can not do that, because I have too many 
other things to do,” but it is absolutely a fact that he opposes it. 
Furthermore, he said that he discussed the matter with Miss Wilson 
and the discussion was whether or not he would oppose it. 

Mr. Si r ME. So far as Mr. Page is concerned, I have not the least 
doubt in the world as to the honesty of his convictions with refer¬ 
ence to it. 

Mr. Ragsdale. If I misunderstood him, I want to be corrected 
now. 

Miss Wilson. Shall I make a statement about it at this time? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes. 

Miss Wilson. Mr. Page, at the forum meeting and in conversation 
with me, agreed with the proposition that the citizens should use 
the school buildings, but he disagreed with me as to where the ex¬ 
penses should come from. He disagreed with me as to the payment 
of the expenses out of the educational fund and said that he be¬ 
lieved they ought to be paid out of money raised by the citizens to 
be used for that purpose. But he did not oppose the idea that the 
school buildings should be open to the citizens, and I did not under¬ 
stand that he opposed the idea that a majority of the community 
should have the right to use the school buildings. 

Mr. Ragsdale. Was he not in favor of leaving it in the hands of 
the board of school commissioners? 

Miss Wilson. The only point, as I understood him, about which he 
disagreed with us was as to the payment of the expenses; that is, 
where the expenses should come from. 

Mr. Syme. I will state that, so far as Mr. Page is concerned, if he 
came into this room now I believe he would say that he was in favor 
of taking the entire control of the schools out of the hands of the 
board of education and putting it in the hands of the Commissioners 
of the District. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is merely changing the control from one set 
of officers to another set, is it not ? 

Mr. Syme. Certainly. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to take 
any more of your time. The thing has been so thoroughly discussed 
that I think there is no necessity for my saying any more, and I did 
not intend to take so much of your time. 

Mr. Lloyd. Our time is fully taken up; but is there anybody else 
who wants to be heard, except Mr. Mackenzie? 

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN G. McGRATH, PRESIDENT OF THE PARK 
VIEW CITIZENS’ ASSOCIATION. 

Mr. McGrath. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mr. Tucker has 
stated that the Park View Citizens’ Association was influenced to 
vote to take favorable action on this question by the fact that Mr. 
Ward was a member of the association. In justice to Mr. Ward and 
to the association I will say that Mr. Ward came into that community 


208 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

at the suggestion of myself, as president of the association, and 
located there so that he might help, at my request, in organizing a 
proper community institution, or whatever it might be called, in 
the new school which is being built with the idea of furnishing such 
accommodation, and I found a house for him. The new school has 
a hall seating TOO people, and in justice to Mr. Ward I make this 
statement, and also in justice to the association, which is the largest 
association in the District of Columbia. 

Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Ward, do you want to make an additional state¬ 
ment ? 

Mr. Ward. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MR. E. J. WARD. 

Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Ward, you have been heard, but if there is any ex¬ 
planation you want to make of any kind of what you have said, we 
are willing to hear it. 

Mr. Ward. It is no retraction. 

Mr. Lloyd. I did not mean that. I did not use the w ord u retrac¬ 
tion r ; you are using that. 

Mr. Ward. Yes. I am bringing this great quantity of stuff, not to 
read it, but I want to be ready to make any explanation that may be 
necessary to clear the suggestion that has been given by the fact that 
in answer to Representative Ragsdale’s question I said that my salary 
under the Government was $1 a year. There was large and general 
applause and for the first time in my life I learned that that applause 
said that I was clever and witty and gave a very smart answer and 
perhaps gave Representative Ragsdale the idea I was joking; and in 
view of the fact I was serious and was stating the fact, as Representa¬ 
tive Ragsdale has later verified, I think it is necessary to make the 
point that as a servant under the Government I was not jesting in 
answer to the Congressman’s question. 

Mr. Lloyd. As a matter of fact, you are an employee of the Bureau 
of Education ? 

Mr. Ward. As a matter of fact, I am an employee sworn, as others, 
to defend the Constitution, using the Government frank as others. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is it true, then, that your purpose in being connected 
with the department was to get the privilege of the frank ? 

Mr. Ward. My purpose in being connected with the department 
Was to render therein the service which I could render by having that 
opportunity. 

Mr. Lloyd. Have you an office in the Bureau of Education ? 

Mr. Ward. Yes, sir; that is, I have one-third of an office. 

Mr. Lloyd. Are your traveling expenses paid when away from 
W ashington ? 

Mr. Ward. When I am on Government employment and on Gov¬ 
ernment business. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you perform any governmental duties? 

Mr. Ward. My recommendations regarding matters pertaining to 
my field go out under Government frank when they are official. 

Mr. Lloyd. What is your field? 

Mr. Ward. My field is community organization which means, con¬ 
cretely and definitely, what w^e have been talking about for the last 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 209 

three days; that is, the matter of organizing the wider uses of the 
schools. 

Mr. Lloyd. When you travel about over the country in the inter¬ 
est of the community idea, are your expenses paid by the Gov¬ 
ernment ? 

Mr. Ward. I expect that they will be when I get away. I have 
been on the job here in the District, so that all the work in the 
national field has been stopped in order that all of the service I 
could render be rendered here in the District. 

Mr. Lloyd. Do you get anything for the service you render here 
in the District? 

Mr. Ward. Not particularly; no, sir. My engagement in the 
work here in the District was brought about as a result of the re¬ 
quest which came from these school principals, which was carried 
to the Commissioner of Education and my suggestion to him of 
the question whether it were more important to do the work that I 
had supposed I was going to do on coming down here; that is, the 
work of suggestion and advice, and so on, as a Government agent 
to other communities, or whether it were more important first of all 
to take the opportunity to help in a consistent and systematic form 
of community organization here which might be of service to other 
parts of the country as a reference. 

Mr. Lloyd. Then your compensation comes from private sources? 

Mr. Ward. Yes; a private source. 

Mr. Lloyd. I do not want to inquire into the private source. 

Mr. Ward. I could not answer your question without taking off 
the “ s.” 

Mr. Ragsdale. As a matter of fact, to whom do you regard your 
first duty, the Government or the private source which pays your 
salary ? 

Mr. Ward. As a matter of fact, I regard my first duty—that is an 
awful hard question; that is a profound, philosophical question. 
May I make a personal reference to the difficulty that it brings in ? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Do not answer it if you don't want to. I mean that. 
I do not want to ask you a question that you do not want to answer. 

Mr. Ward. I want to answer it extremely; and this will make the 
point of my desire to answer it—whether I can or not is the ques¬ 
tion. On March 8 the Washington Herald carried one of the most 
definite and concrete statements that has appeared in the public press 
on the question. What it boils itself down to is this: 

Citizens’ leader attacks Ward. Mark F. Finley, of West End Association, 
assails leader in forum movement. Imputes selfish aim. Declares Prof. 
Ward- 

Mr. Ragsdale. I did not mean - 

Mr. Ward. I thought about your question in relation to this state¬ 
ment, and this is the best form in which T can answer it: 

Declares Prof. Ward is promoting principally Prof. Ward. Opposes use of 
schools. 

The question is this: You have asked me what my first devotion 
is to? 

Mr. Ragsdale. Yes. 

38523—16-14 




210 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

Mr. Ward. I do not know whether my devotion is to the abstract 
idea—the objective thing I have come to believe in, namely, the pos¬ 
sibility of the schoolhouse being used by adults as the machinery of 
community expression—whether my devotion is to that idea and that 
plan, and the possibilities and the advantages of it, or whether lam 
selfish. The reason I do not know- 

Mr. Ragsdale (interposing). The question is this: Who has the 
right to direct your services, the Government or the person who is 
paying you? 

Mr. Ward. If I may quote a statement out of court, that would 
depend on whether you agree with one of the Members of Congress 
who said, “ Who pays the piper calls the tune. 5 ' All of my income 
excepting $1 comes from a private individual. If you accept that 
statement and make it apply, there is at least a suspicion that I am 
controlled by somebody besides the Government. As to the fact of 
my control, I doubt it. 

Miss Wilson. We all doubt it. 

Mr. Ward. However, may I add one thing that was not asked, Mr. 
Chairman ? 

Mr. Lloyd. You may make any explanation you desire to make 
about it, because this is your matter and not ours. 

Mr. Ragsdale. We did not ask for the explanation. 

Mr. Lloyd. What we want you to do is to be as explicit as possi¬ 
ble, and the only purpose is to give you an opportunity to make any 
explanation you want to make. We are not asking for an explana¬ 
tion on our part. 

Mr. Ward. I understand. 

Mr. Lloyd. Of course, I asked you some questions, but that was 
simply to draw out what you had in mind. 

Mr. Ward. Mr. Chairman, as a matter of saving, or creating or 
developing or protecting my repute, that is not worth either your 
time or mine. 

Mr. Ragsdale. That is not under consideration. 

Mr. Ward. The fact is that it is your business, not only mine but 
yours, and yours at least as much as mine, for this reason: The possi¬ 
bility of my being of use to your constituents, of my being of service 
to them, of my expressing to them the best thought and the clearest 
information in regard to this matter of how to organize the com¬ 
munity uses of public-school buildings depends upon being under¬ 
stood. 

I am sure that in the pile of questions that have come in from the 
States, the States of every one of the members of this committee are 
represented, and the possibility of my being of use to those people 
depends upon its being understood and upon my position and what 
I stand for and what I am officially being understood. I can not 
tell you how I regret the suggestion that has grown upon me with 
the putting of Representative Ragsdale’s question—the suggestion 
in the fact that he does not know who is paying the rest of my salary; 
the suggestion that just as soon as his constituents find out that 
they can not tell who is paying the rest of my salary the doubt 
will come, which will not simply interfere with my success but with 
my efficiency as an agent of the United States Government; and that 
is a serious thing. So my point is that if you want to have this thing 
cleared up it is not only my business but it is yours. 



COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 211 


Mr. Lloyd. Are you directed by the Bureau of Education ? 

Mr. Ward. Yes; in general, within the field of a man’s professional 
devotion; within the field of my interpretation, if you please, to pin 
it down to that, of what my job may be. I may be an agent of the 
German Government, for instance, and may be drawing my income 
from Berlin. I have certain restrictions, but I am inside of the 
governmental employment, and T regret, as it growls upon me, the 
suggestion of suspicion, and it has very practical applications in the 
local situation, because you have already seen manifested by even 
the president of the school board a certain resentment in view of the 
fact that I, an upstart, am butting in here. You have heard two 
whole speeches here given to the idea that I am thrusting myself in. 
Now, as a servant of the United States Government, as an appointee 
of this administration of the United States, that is a bad situation, 
ft is a bad condition in my particular kind of work. If my work is 
important, that is important. If the possibilities of my being of 
use in the development of the educational system is important, that is 
important. 

Mr. Lloyd. Is that all you want to say ? 

Mr. Ward. That is all I want to say. It is not by any means all 
I would be glad to answer if it were desired. 

Dr. Jackson. Could I say a word in behalf of this man: just one 
sentence ? 

Mr. Ward. Please do not. 

Mr. Ragsdale. This man is neither under criticism nor attack. 

Mr. MacMurray. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if you have 
had submitted to you a communication by Senator Nelson on this 
subject? I have a communication here and it is probably addressed 
to the Hollis bill. 

Mr. Lloyd. It may have gone to the Senate. 

Dr. MacMurray. It has a bearing on the community forum, and 
could just as well be submitted here and ought to be submitted for 
your consideration. I would like to submit it as a document. 

(The document referred to follows:) 

PUBLIC SCHOOL BUILDINGS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA AS COMMUNITY FORT'MS. 

To the members of the Committee on the District of Columbia: 

Gentlemen : The terms of Senate bill 5080 assume the following points: 

1. That there is a strong demand among the people to be educated on every 
sort of question or topic of interest. 

2. That the public welfare demands that free halls be opened as adult schools. 

3. That those adults who need reform will flock to be instructed. 

4. That Congress has the moral right to seize on institutions created and 
consecrated for a certain part of the public and convert them to uses for which 
they were never designed. 

5. That it will be profitable, both for the present and future, to foment local 
agitation among the few who are suffering from si desire to harangue the people 
and to create a public forum free to every sort of doctrine or else to grant to 
certain leaders the power to exclude any dieas they may desire to suppress. 

6. That the blessings of that system will overbalance the constant cost. 

This bill has been urged by nonresident speakers, who have invited themselves 

to address every sort of gathering that would listen. Being practiced orators, 
their insistent activity has built up a party and a division of public sentiment. 
It is therefore proper that the friends of schools have a hearing and suggest 
some of their doubts on the subject. 

The bill itself is bold in its compulsory requirements. It would compel the 
District government, by statutory order, to adopt a new and untried experiment, 
regardless of consequences evidently probable. 


212 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


The compelling force seems to have been imported from outside, and did not 
originate in popular petitions from the masses, supposed to be subject to and 
eager for instruction through speeches and debates. It seems rather to come 
from a class which longs to pour its ideas into the ear of a benighted popula¬ 
tion. This is uncomplimentary to the intelligence of the adult or aged men and 
women residing in this city. 

The basic principle is unsound. As expounded by ladies on the platform, it 
assumes that where the people have created an institution for well-known spe¬ 
cific purposes it is proper for Congress to order our officials to throw such insti¬ 
tutions open for very different purposes. We question the legal or moral right 
to thus pervert the foundation of a titme-honored system. The men and women 
canvassing for this change seem not to have observed that the proceeding 
would resemble a lawless or anarchistic seizure. For Congress to enact this 
measure would also be meddling in a purely municipal matter at the request of 
short-sighted visionaries. 

This bill is advocated by one who speaks in the name of general education. 
He is employed for this purpose by the United States Commissioner of Educa¬ 
tion to fasten on the schools of this country a new system through your action. 
For it is inevitable that smaller places and weaker schools will make haste to 
ape the example thus set, and, like some in this city, become the tools of de¬ 
signing agitators. Exciting school fads are apt to be imitated, to be in the 
fashion; and it would not be long before every country or village schoolhouse 
would be demanded by local and traveling spouters, whether political or 
spiritual, for night meetings and Sunday shows without end. 

One can not avoid seeing the injurious effects on the common schools when 
their houses become the frequent scent of local strife among excitable people 
of fixed ideas. Every devoted teacher dreads the coming of a petty storm of 
opinions, from its effects on her school. Concentration of young minds, regu¬ 
larity of attendanace, and well-learned lessons can not be maintained in the 
midst of some neighborhood tempest. Yet this bill, with its extension through 
the country, would cast an endless number of firebrands among schools by 
compelling people to meet in forums at anybody’s call, to chew the rag of de¬ 
bate over questions old or new, settled or unsettled, disturbing and distracting 
the young from their studies. 

The teachers of Washington are fearing this very condition. They wish to be 
let alone in their difficult work. They can not see why an officer of education 
should employ a disorganizer to unlock and open the box of Pandora and bring 
not peace but trouble, not only into communities but int the very schoolhouse. 

This bill aims to inaugurate a system whose control will be found imprac¬ 
ticable. Its terms are loose and indefinite. It has no limits as to what may 
or may not be done, except in the matter of pay. It offers to a school principal 
(or to some substitute out of a job) $4 for each forum meeting he may manage 
to hold. Here, then, is a distinct bribe offered to “ start something ” all the 
time in the name of education and by the authority of Congress. Then, too, 
the two assistants he shall appoint, each at $2 per wrangle, will find it to their 
interest to keep the oratorical kettle boiling. Thus, with the police, the janitor, 
the lights, and the fuel, the District can not escape a cost of $10 at least every 
time it pleases the leaders to educate the adults and outsiders on some “ burn¬ 
ing question.” Most of the class that need this sort of education will soon drop 
out and leave the floor to the speakers and to the faithful salaried managers. 

It is also impracticable because most men and women already find that seven 
days in a week are not enough for their engagements. They can get along very 
well without the compulsory forum. The wise may attend, to seek a chance in 
the debate. Many others will be attracted by the hope of hearing angry clashes. 
The choice of topics for debate will cause occasional ructions. The potentate in 
control will find it a ticklish duty, but may enjoy being an important factor in 
“molding public opinion.” When prohibition is rhe text, he must yield his free 
forum to attorneys for saloons and distilleries. In many subjects the course 
of the reforms that the women have planned to execute is liable to have a most 
disagreeable “ flareback.” And when Congress shall have compelled the school 
principal to direct the education of the adult community, his former professional 
duty to the young will go into eclipse. 

The real purpose of this reform backward is as elusive and intangible as the 
wind. But there are enough objections without raising the Sunday issue, nor 
do we need to describe the free-and-easy, go-as-you-please community center, a 
place for games, frolics, dances, theatricals, and flirtations (the bill does not 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 213 


mention chaperones) for the idle unstudious, at the cost of another $10 per 
evening, besides repairs. 

Wisconsin advocates insist on the right of taxpayers to take possession and 
use the schoolhouse. An instance of this practice was seen in central Iowa a 
few years ago, and an eye-witness describes it thus: 

It was a district peopled by ordinary American farmers, remote from any 
village. In their zeal they built a good house, with doors and locks to protect 
their fine modern furniture. Some were then anxious to promote the gospel 
and devote the house to revivals—just as our friends are burning with zeal to 
educate the old folks. But the trustees, knowing the effect of cramming the 
room with a rough grown-up lot. refused the keys. The gospelers set up their 
right to enter “ their property ” (the Wisconsin idea as now proclaimed by high 
authorities), so they broke the door and worshipped therein. 

The tall farmers and solid old wives did not fit the juvenile seats, and more 
damage occurred. The trustees refused to make the repairs or charge the bill 
to the school fund, and the violators denied all responsibility. A full school 
meeting was called to adjust the question, but it broke up in a physical fight, 
which left the desks and windows a hopeless wreck. Thus it remained when 
seen the next autumn, with no prospect of a teacher and a habitable shelter for 
the poor children. The lawless idea of this bill did not work well in Iowa, but 
left parents and children embittered by long irreconcilable antagonisms. 

For all the above reasons, we protest against such an enactment. 

A Friend and an Antisocialist. 

Mr. Lloyd. The time has long passed, but we will give Mr. Mac¬ 
kenzie 10 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM D. MACKENZIE. 

Mr. Mackenzie. Mr. Chairman, I will not ask for any more time, 
because you have been very patient during the long and extended 
arguments. 

Mr. Lloyd. Before you begin, I would like to ask if there is anyone 
else to be heard. 

Dr. MacMurray. There are only one or two questions I would like 
to ask, or ask through you, of Mr. Ward, for fear we misrepresent 
him. The reason is this, if you will allow me to say so, if we should 
happen to make some statements based upon statements made here 
by Mr. Ward we would not want to be aceused of misrepresentation 
or possibly be sued for slander or anything of the kind. 

Mr. Lloyd. The proceedings will be printed, and you will have an 
opportunity to inspect them. 

Dr. MacMurray. And we can use them without subjecting our¬ 
selves to the charge of misrepresentation or anything of the kind ? 

Mr. Lloyd. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Mackenzie. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I 
am to speak for only 10 minutes and I must come right to the point 
and speak somewhat rapidly, and I hope that I will not be inter¬ 
rupted by questions either from the floor or from members of the 
committee, with all due respect to them. Cui bono! as we were taught 
to say by our Latin tutors; in the language of the good old Roman, 
what is the use of this idea? What is the use of this idea of com¬ 
munity forums? I think the best answer to that question that was 
ever given was given by Mr. Wilson out at Madison, Wis., and if you 
want a condensed statement in a general way of the great arguments 
in favor of the idea and showing the benefits of a community forum, 
get a copy of that and read it; no doubt you can find out from Mr. 
Ward where it can be obtained. The great idea is the development of 


214 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 

community spirit. This is an age of collectivism and cooperation; it 
is less an age for the development of individual character than it is 
an age in which better institutions must be developed; in other words, 
the people must think together, feel together, act together, and I 
believe those very words or words to that effect were used by Mr. 
Wilson. 

Another benefit to be derived is the elimination of provincialism. 
People come here from all over the country to fill Government offices. 
They build homes here or they rent homes. It is true of the most 
*of us Government clerks that we own or rent homes, and we bring 
up our children here, but we carry with us from the States from 
which we hail certain local prejudices, provincialisms, and we want 
to rub up against each other, but we have no opportunity except in 
the Government departments. Of course, we do commingle there; 
but in these community forums, discussing all kinds of public ques¬ 
tions, it is certain that a new District of Columbia sentiment will be 
developed which will displace the old feeling of “ I am from Ohio, 

I am from California, and I do not care about District suffrage.” 
Pardon me for referring to District suffrage, but I must, inci¬ 
dentally, because there are so many Government clerks who are 
colleagues of mine, and who say to me, “ I am from California; I 
go back there to vote. I do not care whether the people here ever 
vote or not,” and others say they are from Ohio and all the other 
States of the Union. I think that State feeling would tend to be 
abolished by proper development of these community forums. 

Then it must be admitted that Washington is to have a great 
future. We have heard a great deal about the greater Washington 
which is to come. It is not so much a question of a greater Wash¬ 
ington, ladies and gentlemen, as a question of a better Washington. 
What do I mean by that? A more democratic Washington; a Wash¬ 
ington suffused more by public spirit; a Washington in which we 
will develop all of the institutions which are necessary for a full- 
fledged, progressive, twentieth century city. That is what I mean 
by a greater Washington. Of course, I include also the element of 
beauty, civic beauty, municipal beauty. Let us have parks and 
monuments and boulevards, and let us in every way make Washing¬ 
ton the greatest capital on the face of the globe. Now, we would 
naturally discuss the ways and means of achieving that result in 
these civic forums. There are casual references in our daily news¬ 
papers to these civic ideals—or municipal ideals, I should say—but 
there is nothing like getting people together and discussing those ' 
things and comparing notes; and in the warmth—I will not say 
heat—of discussion new ideas will be developed and the situation 
will be clarified and methods will become clear, and the newspapers 
will give more or less attention to these discussions, and the first 
thing we know this community will be melted into a white heat of 
local patriotism. That is one reason why I favor these proposed 
forums. 

Then, I am thoroughly in sympathy with the idea of social centers 
where we can have music and dancing and everything that the young 
people naturally take to. Let us get the young people off the streets 
and let us give them something better than the ordinary movies. 
God bless the man who invented the moving picture, but/exploited 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 215 

by private profit, the movies are sometimes a curse, because the kind 
of films which are presented are either degraded or indifferent in 
character, and the atmosphere of such places, with all due respect to 
the District government, is impure, and it is almost impossible to 
compel these people to keep the places pure. Now, if we have 
schoolhouses open, with movie shows two or three times a week, I 
undertake to say without the least hesitation that the schools would 
be well ventilated and that every seat would be filled. Now, what a 
splendid local attraction that would be. I never danced. I was 
brought up as a boy by an orthodox Presbyterian father. My 
mother was a little more liberal about dancing, but I never danced 
in my life, yet there is nothing I like to see better than a company 
of young people enjoying the dance and the music that goes with it, 
and these things should not be eliminated. I am broad enough to 
say I would like to see the young people dancing on Sunday after¬ 
noon. Now, that will appear shocking, but the time will come when 
we will adopt that idea. I believe that God, the real God of the 
universe, wants us to be joyful on any day of the Aveek, on any hour 
of the day, but I am not urging that upon you. I know that in all 
of these matters our ingrained prejudices and local sentiments must 
go\ern. 

I believe in popular government. This Nation is dedicated to 
democracy, and I say that these forums Avould naturally be the 
means of developing a demand for local suffrage and self-govern¬ 
ment. Why? It is inevitable, and I do not apologize to the com¬ 
mittee for mentioning the fact. It is an inevitable result. Get 
together and talk about the kind of city Ave Avould like to have, and 
the fact will be brought out that there are commissioners in power, 
no matter how learned they may be or Iioav public-spirited they may 
be, Avho are opposing certain things that the people Avant. Then the 
question naturally comes up, “Why can not Congress give us the 
vote? ” Noay, I Avant to say, as long as I have brought up this sub¬ 
ject, that I believe, with all due respect to this committee, that the 
only duty which Congress has in regard to the municipal affairs of 
this District is to take its hands off, and I hope that somebody will 
get this into the public press, although I do not think they will. 

What I mean is this: That in national affairs the authority of 
Congress should be paramount, but that in running our schools, 
building and maintaining our sidewalks, building our streets, and 
in e\ T erything of that kind which is of local concern, the people here 
should manage that, and Congress should graciously say to us: 
“ Ladies and gentlemen, Ave have tried to govern this city and we 
find Ave haA T e been too busy to do it right. Noav we will turn it over 
to you. We will delegate our poAA T er to you; go ahead and run your 
city.” But the question is continually asked, Do the people Avant it? 
They say that a Scotchman always ansAvers a question by asking an¬ 
other one. I am going to ask tAVo other questions, and Avith that I 
Avill conclude. Do the people Avant community forums? Does a 
little curly haired dog yearn for logarithms or higher mathematics? 
Does a backwoodsman long for the soulful delight of Emerson’s 
philosophy or Walt Whitman’s poetry? I mean that the people of 
the District of Columbia have not had a chance to develop a local 
community spirit here, and the fact that they are indifferent now 


216 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


proves nothing any more than the fact that a backwoodsman does 
not care for Walt Whitman’s poems or Emerson’s philosophy proves 
that that backwoodsman has not a soul which can be developed spir¬ 
itually, socially, civicly, municipally, and in every possible way. 

Now, give us these community forums, and while I am not a 
prophet or the son of a prophet, I will undertake to say that inside of 
5 or 10 years the question of maintaining these forums, if submitted 
to a referendum vote, would be carried by an almost unanimous vote. 
I thank you. 

Mr. Lloyd. We want to submit here at the request of some parties 
the report of the Commissioners of the District of Columbia on this 
bill; also a copy of the preamble to the constitution of the Grover 
Cleveland Forum, and also, if it does not appear in the record else¬ 
where, a statement made by the Grover Cleveland Forum which 
Miss Wilson intended to file and which she thinks she did file, but is 
not quite sure about. 

(The papers referred to are as follows:) 


Executive Office, 

Commissioners of the District of Columbia, 

Washington, April 11, 1916. 

Hon. Ben Johnson, 

Chairman of Committee on the District of Columbia, 

House of Representatives. 

Sir : The Commissioners of the District of Columbia have the honor to sub¬ 
mit the following on H. R. 12,653, Sixty-fourth Congress, first session, entitled 
“A bill to provide for the use of public-school buildings in the District of Co¬ 
lumbia as community forums, and for other purposes/’ which was referred to 
them at your instance for examination and report. 

By the passage of an act of Congress approved March 4, 1915, entitled “An 
act to regulate the use of public-school buildings and grounds in the District 
of Columbia,” Congress expressed its approval of the general proposition that 
the public-school buildings of the District should be made available for the 
appropriate use of all the people, adults and youth as well as children, for social 
or community-center purposes. 

The purpose of this bill is to supplement the existing legislation by requiring 
the Commissioners of the District of Columbia to designate a limited number 
of school buildings for use as community forums and to define and fix the terri¬ 
torial limit of community forums which may be organized in accordance with 
the provisions of the bill, as well as to impose certain duties upon the board of 
education. 

After school houses are completed they are turned over to the board of educa¬ 
tion for school purposes, and the jurisdiction of the commissioners over them 
thereafter is limited to the making of such repairs and improvements as may 
be authorized by law. For this reason there may be some difference of opin¬ 
ion as to whether the duty of designating certain public-school buildings for use 
as community forums should be imposed upon the Commissioners of the District 
of Columbia or upon the board of education. While the commissioners have no 
objection to this work, neither have they any objection to so amending the bill 
as to impose this duty upon the board of education. 

The very essence of the educational service which the public schools can 
render to the association of mature men and women in any community con¬ 
sists in the quickening of the sense of responsibility on their part for the wel¬ 
fare of the young. The public school itself is essentially a community creation 
of the natural perental sense of responsibility of the mature for the welfare 
of the immature, which is perhaps the most important, fundamental, and 
effective instinct that makes for the well-being and improvement of society. 

The use of public-school buildings as authorized by this bill is not intended 
in any manner to interfere or conflict with the primary and essential character 
and purpose of the public school, but is intended merely to increase the useful¬ 
ness of the buildings by making them available as community meeting places 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 217 


for the public education of the community through the open presentation and 
free discussion of public questions. 

Legislation looking toward the full use of public-school property has been 
enacted in Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New 
Jersey, Pennsylvania. Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Illi¬ 
nois, Kentucky. Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, Okla¬ 
homa, New Mexico, Idaho, Utah, California, Oregon, and Washington. 

The development of Wisconsin in this direction is most important, because in 
that State was first enacted the legislation which directs the trustees of the 
public-school property to provide, at public expense, light, heat, and janitor 
service, and to make such other provisions as might be required for the con¬ 
venient use of the public-school building by the community association of the 
adult citizens of the school district. 

The experience of Wisconsin during the past five years under the law which 
establishes the right of the people to use the school houses at the time they 
desire as properly constituted community forums has completely justified its 
enactment. There has been no case of disorder or abuse of property, but on 
the contrary a general advancement in community interests and public intelli¬ 
gence through the exercise of community self-expression under community self- 
control. It may be of interest to note that the occasion of the enactment of 
this legislation in Wisconsin was the refusal of the board of education in two 
towns in that State to recognize, under a law which left the discretion in this 
matter with the school boards, the right of the adult citizens to the community 
forum use of the public-school houses. 

The bill under consideration secures, with appropriate adaptation to condi¬ 
tions in the District of Columbia, the right of the adult citizenship (in 10 local 
communities, and prospectively in all) to a proper community use of the public- 
school buildings and makes the necessary provisions for the exercise of this 
right. 

The provisions of the bill are practically identical with the provisions of the 
law which has been in operation in Wisconsin for live years, and in other 
States for periods ranging from one to five years, except that this bill provides 
for the definite fixing of responsibility for executive-secretarial service inci¬ 
dental to the consistent use of the public-school building. 

The Commissioners of the District of Columbia are in entire sympathy with 
the general purpose of the proposed legislation, which is designed, as stated, to 
increase the usefulness of public-school buildings in this jurisdiction, and they 
therefore earnestly urge and recommend the enactment of the measure into law, 
Very respectfully, 

The Board of Commissioners of the District of Columbia, 
By Louis Brownlow, Acting President. 


Preamble. 

Whereas we, the men and women of the neighborhood about the Grover Cleve¬ 
land School, have a common and absolute responsibility for furnishing to the 
youth of this community a worthy and living example of proper civic devotion, 
and a common opportunity to refine and clarify the intellectual life of this com¬ 
munity to the benefit and enrichment of its every member; and 

Whereas to fulfill this obligation and realize this opportunity, it is necessary 
that there be established in our midst a public or community forum, which 
shall serve as the medium of our community membership, the place where we 
may go to school to one another in the understanding of the problems of our life 
together, and the instrument of our effective cooperation in the common inter¬ 
ests ; and 

Whereas the public sclioolhouse furnishes the ready and appropriate head¬ 
quarters for this genuinely public educational expression: 

Therefore we do organize and establish the Grover Cleveland Community 
Forum, to be used for the open presentation and all-sided discussion of public 
questions in the hearing and with the equal participation of the adult citizens 
of this community. And for our government of this forum we do adopt the fol¬ 
lowing constitution and rules of order: 



218 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


Constitution. 

Article 1.— Name. 

The name of this institution is the Grover Cleveland Community Forum. 

Article 2.— Object. 

The object of this forum is to provide opportunity for the open and fair pre¬ 
sentation and free discussion of public questions. 

Article 3 .—Membersli ip. 

Section 1. The membership of this forum includes every adult (white) citi¬ 
zen residing in the public-school district of the Grover Cleveland School; that is, 
the territory from which children come to this building for instruction. 

Sec. 2. Until proper and adequate provision is made for the necessary secre¬ 
tarial and janitor expenses to be paid out of public funds as other public educa¬ 
tional expenses are paid out of public funds, there shall be a sustaining member ¬ 
ship composed of all citizens who contribute 50 cents or more per year to be 
used in paying these necessary expenses of the forum. 

Sec. 3. Until such time as there may be similar community forums established 
in other sections of the city, any adult resident of the District of Columbia may 
attend and participate in this forum assembly as though he were a resident of 
the Grover Cleveland neighborhood. 


Article 4. — Officers. 

The officers shall be a president, a vice president, a secretary, and a treasurer, 
and their duties shall be such as usually pertain to their respective offices. 
They shall be elected by majority ballot as soon after organization as possible, 
and thereafter annually at the first business meeting in October. They shall 
hold office until their successors have been duly elected. In case of the dis¬ 
qualification or resignation of any officer, the president shall have the power 
to make a temporary appointment, which shall continue in effect until the next 
business meeting of the forum association. 

Article 5.— Committees. 

Section 1. There shall be .an executive committee, consisting of the officers 
and the chairmen of the standing committees, which shall be charged with the 
special duty of promoting the interests of the forum. The secretary of the 
forum shall serve as the clerk of the executive committee. 

Sec. 2. The president shall appoint a program committee, which shall co¬ 
operate with the secretary in securing speakers and arranging programs for 
the sessions of the forum, and an usher committee, which shall serve in the 
meetings of the forum. 

Article 6. — Dues. 

Section 1. There shall be no dues for membership. 

Sec. 2. The dues for sustaining members, to be paid until this properly 
public expense is assumed by the public educational support, shall be 50 cents 
a year. 

Sec. 3. The dues are payable at any time to the treasurer, who shall keep 
an accurate report of all moneys and give to each sustaining member a re¬ 
ceipt for the payment of his dues. 

Sec. 4. Except by vote of the assembly at a public meeting no moneys shall 
be expended except in pay to the secretary and the janitor for their service 
at the rate of $4 to the secretary and $2 to the janitor for each session of the 
forum. 

Article 7. — Meetings. 

Section 1. The regular meetings of the forum shall take place at 3 o’clock 
on Sunday afternoons, in the assembly hall of the Grover Cleveland School. 

Sec. 2. The business meetings of the forum membership shall be held at the 
call of the president. 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 219 


Article 8.— Quorum. 

A quorum for the transaction of business shall consist of not less than 20 
members. 

Article 9. —Amendmcn t*. 

This constitution may be amended by a two-thirds vote of all members 
present at any business meeting, provided that written notice of intention to 
submit such amendment shall have been given at a business meeting at least 
two weeks prior to the meeting at which the amendment is to be voted on. 

RULES OF ORDER. 

The forum shall be called to order and the first principal speaker of the 
day introduced not later than 3 o’clock. 

The formal address or addresses should be finished and the subject of the 
day thrown open for discussion not later than 4 o’clock. 

The discussion should last not longer than three-quarters of an hour, and 
at its close the speaker or speakers should be given opportunity to sum up the 
discussion and answer questions. 

The president of the forum shall see that the following specific rules are 
closely adhered to: 

In speaking from the floor in the open discussion the parliamentary rules 
requiring addressing the chair, etc., shall be observed. 

Speeches from the floor are limited to three minutes, and the time may be 
extended only by unanimous consent. 

No speaker may have the floor a second time until all others who wish to 
speak have had opportunity to do so. 

Speeches from the floor must deal specifically with the topic of the day as 
set forth in the formal address. 


By the passage of the act entitled “An act to regulate the use of public- 
school buildings and grounds in the District of Columbia,” approved March 4, 
1915, Congress expressed its approval of the general proposition that the public- 
school buildings of the District should be made available for appropriate use 
of all the people—adults and youth, as, well as children—as social or com¬ 
munity centers. 

There seems to be no disagreement, but, on the contrary, general indorse¬ 
ment of this proposition. For example, in the opening of his last report the 
superintendent of schools makes the following statements, which have received 
the approval of both the Commissioners of the District and board of education : 

“ The public schools, if they are at all alive, are in process of change and 
of adjustment to the needs of the communities they serve. The public schools 
are the public’s schools. 

“ The modern school system has not completed its work and met all its 
opportunities for service to the community when it has provided a sound 
common-school and high-school education. 

“ Like the village school of generations back, modern school buildings and 
related equipment should be used as centers of neighborliness, centers of social 
intercourse and recreation, centers for the discussion of civic affairs that will 
promote acquaintance, understanding, and cooperation in matters affecting 
the common good. 

“ To some extent, through our home and school associations throughout 
our system, and through student clubs and other activities, as developed most 
markedly at the Grover Cleveland School, we have touched the outer edge of 
this broader usefulness, though handicapped by legal restrictions. During 
the school year just passed, however, Congress enacted the so-called social- 
center bill. 

“ The passage of this act for a broader use of schools in a community way 
was due in considerable measure to the deep personal interest of Miss Margaret 
Wilson, the daughter of the President. The bill had the approval and support 
of the board of education, the Commissioners of the District of Columbia, the 
librarian of the Public Library, and civic and social organizations generally.” 

The superintendent quotes in full the act, the first provision of which is: 

“ That the control of the public schools of the District of Columbia by the 
board of education shall extend to, include, and comprise the use of public- 



220 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


school buildings and grounds by pupils of the public schools, other children, 
and adults, for supplementary-educational purposes, civic meetings for the 
free discussion of public questions * * 

Upon this act, which is the present law, he makes the following comments, 
which, appearing in his official report, have been approved by both the Com¬ 
missioners of the District and the board of education: 

“ We shall be handicapped more or less in a material way until the new act 
is followed by the requisite supporting appropriations. 

“A need to be met is that of compensation of janitors for extra service. They 
should receive a special night or hour rate for extra service entailed by the 
opening of school buildings for community use. I believe this expense, which 
should not be heavy, should be met by public appropriation.” 

Thus not only is there complete and officially stated agreement concerning 
the general proposition that the public-school buildings should be made avail¬ 
able for use as community centers, but there is also agreement as to the need of 
enacting the appropriation features of the bill under consideration in so far 
as these relate to the provision of necessary physical equipment and proper 
remuneration for janitor service. 

Moreover, both the superintendent of schools and the president of the board 
of education have, in public statement, approved the idea that in order to have 
the community use of the school buildings systematically developed and prop¬ 
erly coordinated with their established instructional use it is essential that the 
organizing secretarial and executive service indispensable for this wider use 
be made the official duty of a definitely appointed and properly compensated 
person in each local community—with the necessary assistants for direction of 
young people’s activities—who shall be responsible for service to the local com¬ 
munity in its use of the public-school building, and who shall not be uncon¬ 
nected with the public-school system and so shall be responsible to the superin¬ 
tendent of schools in the matter of reports, etc. Indeed, the president of the 
board of educaton has authorized the statement that if the administrative 
provisions recommended in this bill are made for the consistent organization of 
this development in the local communities the board of education may be ex¬ 
pected to provide for the organization of the unifying service at the office of 
the superintendent of schools, by which this development may be properly 
systematized and harmonized throughout the District. 

Also, there is no serious difference regarding the unimportant detail as to 
whether it shall be the duty of the Commissioners of the District or of the 
board of education to designate the buildings which shall immediately be made 
available under the provisions of this act for use as properly organized com¬ 
munity forums and to define the territory that each shall serve. While the 
commissioners hold that for the economical and efficient administration of the 
affairs of the District the administrative responsibility of the board of edu¬ 
cation should be unified with that of the commissioners, yet in this matter of 
selecting appropriate buildings to be made available for use as community 
forums and mapping the District for community forum purposes the commis¬ 
sioners have no objection to this duty being performed by the board of education. 

The one issue which has been raised, and in its sound and proper settlement 
of which this bill has its essential importance, is whether the desires of the 
adult residents of a local community are to be respected by the public admin¬ 
istrative body—in this case the board of education—in such a matter as the 
selection of the time of their meeting in the public-school building. 

This issue, upon whose proper settlement seems to depend consistent com¬ 
munity-center development in the District of Columbia, was raised in the first 
neighborhood in'which a properly constituted community organization of adult 
persons was formed to discharge the responsibilities that naturally belong to 
adults in relation to the youth of the community by holding in the public 
schoolhouse such “ civic meetings for the free discussion of public questions ” 
as are specifically authorized in the present law. 

A somewhat detailed statement of this case may serve to illustrate and make 
plain the very vital and fundamental importance of the principle involved in 
the bill, and may also show the reasons why the educational welfare of the 
District of Columbia seems to require its passage. 

As noted above in the quotation from the report of the superintendent of 
schools the uses of a school building for other than compulsory instructional 
activities and by others than the day-school pupils had been “ developed most 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 221 


markedly at the Grover Cleveland School,” which is at Eighth and T 
Streets NW. 

Miss Frances S. Fairley, the principal of this school, and Miss Cecil B. Norton, 
a teacher in the school, who had been responsible for assisting in promoting com¬ 
munity activities, had become convinced that for the sake of the school itself, 
and particularly to strengthen, unify, and complete the organization of the 
social and recreative uses of the building on the part of the young people of the 
community, there must he a responsible and authoritative organization of the 
adults. Individual parents of the pupils in the school and of the young people 
who gathered there for recreational activities had occasionally come to the 
building, and their presence had been most grateful to both Miss Fairley and 
Miss Norton as providing a strong, friendly, updrawing influence of just the 
right sort to help in the work which Miss Fairley and Miss Norton were 
seeking to do. 

As Miss Norton phrased her own and Miss Fairley’s perception of this need: 

“ The idea grew to our minds that just as the father and mother must be 
present in the individual household in order to furnish a living example of right 
conduct, of self-control, and cooperation for the children, and in order to express 
the natural parent sense of responsible authority and interest in the young 
people’s welfare, so if the public-school community center is to be complete 
and effective the men and women of the community must come to the school- 
house, giving an example of self-government, and expressing through their 
serious-minded meeting here the natural sense of responsible authority that 
belongs to the men and women of the community in their relation to the young 
people. 

“ We felt that a community organization of the men and women of this 
neighborhood, formed in response to their natural obligation for the welfare 
of the young people, would not only benefit the young people but would also 
benefit the men and women themselves. It would tend to make the fathers and 
mothers more interested in the children. It would tend to develop the sense 
of respect and right feeling on the part of the young people not only toward their 
own fathers and mothers hut toward all the older people of the community. 

“ Without the men and women of the community organized to gather in the 
schoolhouse, we felt that this institution represented a sort of orphanage, an 
abnormal and unnatural disconnection between the responsible adults and the 
young people. With the men and women organized to gather here, we felt 
that the right relationship would be established, and the schoolhouse would 
become, what it ought to be, not an institution to supplant and deny parental 
obligation, but a means of vitalizing and strengthening this most important, 
wholesome, and natural bond.” 

Finally, on Tuesday evening, February 8, 1916. in response to a public 
announcement and call issued by Miss Fairley, principal of the Grover Cleve¬ 
land School, inviting the adult residents of the neighborhood served by that 
school to assemble for organization of an adult community association, there 
was held a meeting at which an organization was formed with this distinct and 
expressed purpose of meeting and discharging the obligations which rest with 
the adult residents of a community in relation to the children of that com¬ 
munity by holding public assemblies of the adult citizens of the neighborhood, 
“civic meetings for the free discussion of public questions,” in the community 
place of the children’s instruction. 

Excerpts from the constitution adopted, after due consideration by this asso¬ 
ciation, show its character and intent. The preamble reads as follows : 

“ Whereas we, the men and women of the- neighborhood about the Grover 
Cleveland School, have a common and absolute responsibility for furnishing to 
the youth of this community a worthy and living example of proper civic devo¬ 
tion and a common opportunity to refine and clarify the intellectual life of this 
community to the benefit and enrichment of its every member; and 

“ Whereas to fulfill this obligation and to realize this opportunity it is neces¬ 
sary that there be established in our midst a public or community forum which 
shall serve as the medium of our community membership, the place where we 
may go to school to one another in the understanding of the problems and 
responsibilities of our life together; and 

“ Whereas the public school building furnishes the appropriate and natural 
headquarters for this genuinely public-educational expression: 

« Therefore we do organize and establish the Grover Cleveland Community 
Forum, to be used for the open presentation and all-sided discussion of public 


222 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


questions in the hearing and with the equal participation of the adult citizens 
of this community. And for our government of this forum we do adopt the 
following constitution and rules of order.” 

There follows a statement of the agreed-upon characterization and rules of 
procedure of the organization, the distinguishing paragraph of which is in 
“ Article 3—Membership,” which reads: 

“The membership of this forum includes every adult (white) citizen residing 
in the public-school district of the Grover Cleveland School; that is. the terri¬ 
tory from which children come to this building for instruction.” 

After the nature and object of the organization had been decided upon, the 
question regarding the most appropriate and convenient time of meeting was 
considered. 

In view of the essentially high, worthy, and serious purpose of the organiza¬ 
tion, it was proposed that the free time of Sunday afternoon would be not only 
the most convenient, but the most appropriate time for community conference 
assembly to meet intelligently the obligations of adulthood in the building 
which—embodying devotion to the welfare of the children—represents the dear¬ 
est and most sacred common interest of the community. The proposal was 
thoroughly discussed. Among those who spoke in approval of the suggestion 
was the Rev. J. A. Norton, a clergyman, who pointed out that there could be 
no valid objection to this use of the school building on Sunday afternoon if the 
men and women of the community chose that time of meeting, because every¬ 
body would recognize that this question of how Sunday should be used is a 
matter for the people of each community to decide for themselves; moreover, 
he said, he personally would regard this time of meeting as most appropriate. 
There was no objection raised to the proposal. However, before the matter 
was voted upon, the janitor was consulted to learn whether he would be willing 
to open the building and have it in readiness for use for meetings on Sunday 
afternoon. He said that he would be glad to do so for the compensation 
offered. Thereupon it was unanimously voted that the board of education be 
requested to make the assembly hall of the school building available for a 
meeting to be held the following Sunday afternoon at 3 o’clock. 

At this first regular meeting of the community forum, which took place on 
Sunday afternoon, February 13, the Hon. Robert N. Page, Representative from 
North Carolina and chairman of the subcommittee on the District of Columbia 
of the House Committee on Appropriations; President Oliver P. Newman, of 
the Board of District Commissioners; President Henry P. Blair, of the board 
of education; and Miss Margaret Wilson, daughter of the President, were the 
principal speakers. Miss Fairley, principal of the school, gave an explanation 
of the purpose of the organization and an account of its formation at the open¬ 
ing of the meeting. All the appointed speakers and those who spoke from the 
floor during the period of discussion following the formal addresses expressed 
approval of the community forum. 

.On this occasion no question was raised as to the suitability of Sunday after¬ 
noon as a time for community meetings. The central point of consideration 
being that set forth in the statement of Miss Wilson: 

“ If the citizens are to assemble in these buildings, as now do their repre¬ 
sentatives assemble in the buildings which the citizens provide for them, then 
the citizens must, as a matter of course, have the responsible service of a clerk 
or secretary of their meeting, just as every body of representatives has such 
service. Surely Congress will see the point. The Members of the Senate or of 
the House could not get along at all in businesslike fashion without somebody 
definitely engaged as clerk of the Senate or clerk of the House to take care 
of the detail work of their meeting. 

“ We must have somebody responsible in each community, and Congress ought 
not, and we ought not, to expect the public-school principal or any other per¬ 
son to do this work without official recognition and proper remuneration for 
this essentially public and essentially educational service. 

“ We must remember that what we are organizing is a forum of citizens of 
the United States. As American citizens, meeting to consider problems of the 
common welfare which are the problems of the welfare of the young people 
for whose interests we are responsible, our public assemblies should be digni¬ 
fied. This is possible only when our community servants are made officially 
reponsible by proper and public remuneration.” 

Although the necessity of fixing responsibility and providing suitable com¬ 
pensation for executive secretarial service incidental to the community use of 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 223 


the building, rather than the appropriateness of meeting on Sunday afternoon, 
was the matter to which attention was given at this first regular meeting, yet 
the following formal resolution was presented and unanimously adopted: 

“ To the Board of Education of the District of Columbia: 

“ We, adult citizens of the District of Columbia gathered in public assembly 
in the Grover Cleveland School Building, respectfully petition that the assembly 
hall of the Grover Cleveland School Building be made available of an orderly, 
public, entirely noncommercial character, on such Sunday afternoons as may 
be conveniently arranged with the principal of the building.” 

At a second business meeting, held in the Grover Cleveland School Building 
on Wednesday evening, February 16, the election of permanent officers of the 
community association took place. 

At the previous meeting, Miss Fairley, the principal of the school, had been 
elected pro tempore to serve as executive secretary. The idea of her selection 
for this executive office under the parent adult association was that by this 
means the proper coordination between the adult youths’ and the children’s use 
of the building would be attained and the central serious purpose of 1 lie adult 
association served. However, at this meeting of February 16, Miss Fairley 
explained that with regret she found that the requirements of teaching, con¬ 
nected with her work as principal, would make it impossible for her to serve 
as executive secretary of the adult association. Thereupon the meeting, in con¬ 
formity with the idea that the adult use of the building must be kept in 
mutually beneficial harmony and connection with its established use for the 
instruction of children and the recreation of young people, asked Miss Fairley 
to nominate a person in whom she had confidence who might act as her deputy 
in this office of executive secretary of the adult community association. She 
named Miss Cecil B. Norton, who, as a teacher in the schools and director 
of the young peoples’ recreational activities, could serve to maintain the proper 
beneficial harmony between the several uses of the building. Thus the idea of 
the community forum as consistent with and designed to make more effective 
the present service of the school was here again definitely expressed and 
emphasized. 

On Sunday afternoon, February 20, was held the second regular meeting of 
the adult citizens of the community in the building in which the organization 
had been formed to meet. At this meeting the principal speaker was the Hon. 
Simeon D. Fess, Representative from Ohio. He said: 

“ The Nation’s defense is in its Army and Navy, but the Nation’s strength 
is in the quality of its citizenship, and to this we must look as well as to arms 
and munitions, for it is the foundation of all our security. In just such meet¬ 
ings as this, where citizens assemble on the common ground which the public 
school-house affords, will be developed the spirit that will make America 
invincible. 

“ I can not believe that from any source opposition to such meetings as this 
could come. As I understand, you have organized in such a way as to have 
as your executive secretary a person who is officially connected with the public- 
school system of the District. With such responsible organization every public 
schoolhouse should be made a public forum.” 

On February 23 the board of education issued a formal order closing the 
schoolhouse and forbidding its use by the citizens at the time they desired to 
meet. No explanation accompanied the order, but it was said that this refusal 
of the building would be maintained pending the board’s investigation and ar¬ 
rival at a final decision in the matter. There was no suggestion that the two 
meetings which had been held in the schoolhouse had been unseemly or other¬ 
wise than appropriate and beneficial. 

The program for the meeting the following Sunday, February 27, had been 
planned and arranged with a special reference to the primary object of the 
organization—the vitalizing of the sense of parental responsibility of the adult 
citizenship for the welfare of the children. It had been planned to have some 
30 to 50 children come to the schoolhouse, and there, in the presence of their 
parents and other men and women of the community, to have Police Officer 
William Shelby give them a talk on “ Why is a policeman? ” The object being 
to acquaint the fathers and mothers with the educational work being done 
among their children by the police department. After the talk to the children, 
it was planned to have them withdrawn and to have the ideas and method set 
forth by Officer Shelby discussed by the men and women present. 


224 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF -COLUMBIA. 


When the board of education closed the doors of the schoolhouse it was neces¬ 
sary, in order that the program should be carried out, to transport the children 
from their own neighborhood to the New National Museum, which was cour¬ 
teously offered for the accommodation of the citizens who had been shut out 
from their natural appropriate and convenient meeting place. 

At the meeting in the museum, which was attended by 1,000 or 1,200 citizens, 
Maj. and Supt. of Police Raymond W. Pullman said of Officer Shelby’s talk to 
the children: 

“ We regard this as a rare and splendid opportunity to tell you men and 
women what we, your servants, are trying to make your children understand. 
If we are wrong, we want to know it; if we are right, we want your help. This 
is a fine illustration of what can be secured in all public service when every 
public schoolhouse is a community forum.” 

On this occasion Secretary Franklin K. Lane, of the Department of the Inte¬ 
rior, said: 

“ You are not meeting in a schoolhouse to-day, but, unless I am much mis¬ 
taken, you will hold these public meetings there when you want them there. 
Those buildings should be open for use when the people want them.” 

On this occasion also Mrs. Susie Root Rhodes, a member of the board of edu¬ 
cation, said: 

“ Sunday afternoon is an excellent time for community meeting. At this time 
we are free from our various duties and have the chance to devote our thought 
together to the great problems of our common life, which are the problems of the 
welfare of our young people. But the important point is not that the people 
should have the use of the schoolhouses particularly on Sunday afternoons, but 
that their fathers and mothers, the taxpayers, should have these buildings for 
meeting at any hour of any day or in the evening, whenever they desire. 

“ There is no danger of conflict with the children’s use of these buildings, for 
at the time the day school is in session grown-ups are at work.” 

On Friday, March 3, upon the request of Miss Margaret Wilson, daughter of 
the President, and herself the honorary president of the Grover Cleveland Com¬ 
munity Forum, this bill, H. R. 12653, which had been prepared with the co¬ 
operation of the United States Bureau of Education in the light of the experi¬ 
ence not only of the District of Columbia but of the whole Nation in developing 
the community uses of the public schoolhouse, was introduced by Representative 
Ben Johnson, of Kentucky. 

The following Sunday afternoon, March 5, the bill was read and explained 
in theory and detail by Miss Wilson at a large public meeting held under the 
auspices of the Grover Cleveland Community Forum, in the Public Library, 
which had been put at the disposal of the citizens through the courtesy of 
its trustees. At the conclusion of her address, Miss Wilson quoted the Presi¬ 
dent’s words concerning the community forum use of the public schoolhouse: 
“ This movement must challenge to cooperation every man and woman who 
shares the spirit of America.” After thorough discussion the bill was unani¬ 
mously indorsed by this large assembly of citizens, a vote of thanks was given 
Representative Johnson for introducing the bill, and the earnest hope was ex¬ 
pressed that its provisions may be enacted into law by this Congress. , 

On this occasion, Representative Robert Grosser, of Ohio, who introduced in 
the House the bill which became the present law relating to the use of the 
public-school buildings, said that he had been astonished to learn that the board 
of education had presumed to close a public-school building when the men 
and women of the community desired to meet there in the interest of a better 
understanding of public questions. He said: 

“ If the board of education does not open the buildings when the people want 
them, under a law which authorizes the board to do this, then certainly the law 
must be enacted which directs the board to do it.” 

At the meeting in the Public Library the following Sunday afternoon, March 
12, Representative George H. Tinkham, of Massachusetts, said : 

“ I look upon this forum bill as applying to modern conditions what our fore¬ 
fathers knew was true and fundamental—the right and importance of adult 
citizens assembling from time to time to discuss the questions that must be 
answered if this Government is to live. 

“ The schoolhouses, owned by the people and maintained by the people, should 
be at the disposal of adults at any time they desire to use them when they are 
not actually in use for the instruction of the young.” 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 225 


At this meeting Dr. P. P. Claxton declared that the enactment of this measure 
would he educationally advantageous not only to the District of Columbia, but 
to the whole Nation in that it provides a well thought-out and consistent plan and 
method for the community use of the public-school buildings, which will serve 
as a worthy and proper example and standard for all communities throughout 
America. 

On this occasion, also, Commissioner Oliver 1*. Newman pointed out the prac¬ 
tical advantage to the people and to the commissioners of having a systematic 
and trustworthy medium of communication, such as this bill proposes, for the 
better mutual understanding between the people and the officials whose duty it is 
to serve them. 

On March 15 the board of education finally and formally voted to forbid the 
use of the Grover Cleveland School Building by the community association of 
adult citizens at the time this association desired to meet there. 

The following day the bill, identical, except for a minor change, with that 
introduced by Representative Johnson in the House, was introduced by Senator 
Hollis in the Senate. 

The next Sunday afternoon, March 19, at the Public Library, Miss Margaret 
Wilson said: 

“ The issue is between the school board and the people. Under the present 
law the school board can close the buildings to the people. Under the Hollis- 
Johnson bill the people will have the right to use them. 

“ The vital point is that the authority of the adult citizens of the District shall 
be established in this matter, so that their desires shall be respected concerning 
the use of the public-school buildings.” 

On this occasion Senator William E. Chilton, of West Virginia, asked: 

“Can it be that any body of public servants in this enlightened age actually 
says that the people can't meet when they want to in their own buildings? ” 

And here the matter stands. 

In contravention of the purpose and plain intent of the act approved March 4, 
1915, the board of education has disregarded the desires of the adult citizens of a 
community and refused them the use of the public school building at the time 
they wished to meet there in fulfillment of their natural obligation for the wel¬ 
fare of the children and youth of that community. 

What Miss Norton said, in her statement quoted above— 

“ With the men and women organized to gather here, we felt that the right 
relationship would be established and the schoolhouse would become what it 
ought to be—not an institution to supplant and deny parental obligation—but a 
means of vitalizing and strengthening this most important, wholesome, and 
natural bond ”— 

brings out clearly the injury to the cause of public education that has been 
done by this denial of a natural right of the adult citizenship, the parenthood 
of a community, when it sought sincerely and intelligently to express its natural 
obligation for the welfare of the young people of that community. 

The very essence of the educational service which the public schools can render 
to the association of mature.men and women in any community consists in the 
quickening of the sense of responsibility on their part for the welfare of the 
young. The public school itself is essentially a community creation of this 
natural parental sense of responsibility of the mature for the welfare of the 
immature, which is perhaps the most vitally important, fundamental, effective 
instinct that makes for the well-being and improvement of society. 

In order to develop this parental sense of responsibility on the part of the 
association of adult residents of any local community, it is obviously necessary 
that, in their use of the public schoolhouse as a meeting place, this natural 
and proper authority, which belong to the parental association of mature per¬ 
sons in its relation to the youth and children of the community, should find 
opportunity for appropriate exercise. 

It is immaterial whether the exercise of this sense of responsibility, of au¬ 
thority, of discretion, on the part of the adult membership in any local com¬ 
munity be defined as a right or a duty; the pertinent fact is that only as this 
natural and proper authority is exercised and respected in the adult use of the 
public-school buildings can this use be effectively and appropriately educative 
of adults and consistent with the essential character and purpose of the public 
school, which is (as Miss Norton has said) not to supplant and deny, but to 
vitalize and make more effective the natural bond of obligation which exists 


38523—16-15 



226 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 


between the association of men and women, of fathers and mothers, in any 
community, and the association of their children. 

Now, it would seem that if there is any matter which might with propriety 
be left to the discretion, judgment, and good sense of the adult residents of a 
local community, any matter in which their natural sense of responsibility and 
parental authority might properly be exercised, the selection of their time of 
peaceable assembly to consult for the common good—involving, as it does, the 
question of Sunday observance-—is such a matter. This is manifestly a question 
which, in accordance with the American spirit of tolerance and governmental 
impartiality enunciated in Article I of the amendments to the Constitution of 
the United States, can be settled satisfactorily and agreeably to the people of 
any local community only by the conscientious decision of the people of that 
community for themselves. 

To sum up: The public-school buildings can not be consistently and effec¬ 
tively used as community centers unless they are made the centers of appro¬ 
priate community organization of adults; they can not become centers of bene¬ 
ficial and self-respecting use on the part of adults unless the natural sense of 
parental responsibility of the adult citizenship in each local community is exer¬ 
cised in such a matter as the decision of the time of meeting; this natural 
sense of parental responsibility can not be properly expressed without the es¬ 
tablishment by Congress of the machinery of organized community expression 
proposed in this bill. 

Considering the matter in relation to the general movement for the increased 
use of the public-school equipment throughout the country, the passage of the 
bill is, as the United States Commissioner of Education has said, highly ap¬ 
propriate and desirable. 

Legislation looking toward the full use of the public-school property has been 
enacted in Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New 
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Illi¬ 
nois. Kentucky, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, Okla¬ 
homa, New Mexico, Idaho, Utah, California, Oregon, and Washington. 

However, in this development the experience of Wisconsin is most important, 
because in that State was first enacted the legislation which directs the trustees 
of the public-school property to provide, at public expense, light, heat, and jani¬ 
tor service, and to make such other provisions as may be necessary for the con¬ 
venient use of the public-school building by the community association of the 
adult citizens of a school district, as a community forum, at the time designated 
by this association for its meetings. 

It may be of interest to note that the occasion of the enactment of this legis¬ 
lation in Wisconsin was the refusal of the boards of education in two towns in 
that State to recognize, under a law which left the discretion in this matter 
with the school boards, the right of the adult citizens to the community forum 
use of the public schoolhouses. 

The experience of Wisconsin during the past five years under the law which 
establishes the right of the people to use the schoolhouses at the time they de¬ 
sire as properly constituted community forums, has completely justified its en¬ 
actment. There has been no case of disorder or abuse of property, but on the 
contrary, a general advancement in community interest and public intelligence 
through this exercise of community self-expression under community self-con¬ 
trol. 

This bill secures, with appropriate adaptation to conditions in the District of 
Columbia, the right of the adult citizenship (in 10 local communities, and pros¬ 
pectively in all) to a proper community use of the public-school buildings, and 
makes the necessary provisions for the proper exercise of this right. 

The passage of this bill will not change the situation regarding the availabil¬ 
ity of the other public-school buildings in the District for community use. These 
may still be made available for such use at the discretion of the board of educa¬ 
tion. This bill simply guarantees that in 10 local communities the desire of the 
adult citizenship, when properly organized, shall be respected, and that these 
buildings shall be made available for proper use. 

The provisions of the bill are practically identical with those which have been 
in operation in Wisconsin for five years and in other States for periods ranging 
from one to five years, except that this bill includes the definite fixing of re¬ 
sponsibility for executive-secretarial service incidental to the consistent use of 
the public-school pudding. 

Concerning the essential importance of this provision, Charles P. Cary, State 
superintendent of education in Wisconsin, writes: 


COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 227 


“ The movement for developing the civic, social, and recreational—that is, the 
larger educational—resources in each community through the use of the public- 
school building by adults for civic expression, by older youth for training in 
self-government, and by the whole community for wholesome recreation, has 
grown in the past few years out of the tentative and experimental stage. We 
know from the experience in many places in Wisconsin and elsewhere that sys¬ 
tematic community center development is possible only where there is the 
definite placing of responsibility for executive secretarial service in each com¬ 
munity.” 

The bill embodies the results of 25 years’ experimentation in various parts of 
the country in the development of the appropriate community use of the public- 
school equipment for the education of the people. It is a thoroughly sound, 
consistent, and economical measure. 

(Thereupon the committee adjourned.) 


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